Suns sign Rubio

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3rdside
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Re: Suns sign Rubio

Post by 3rdside » Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:17 am

Split T wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:30 pm
3rdside wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:00 am
Split T wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:20 am
jonh wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 8:12 am
Aztec Sunsfan wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:42 pm


So I suppose that all those Fisher and H***y’s teams won the champioship because they were built around those two, right?

Your premise is really flawed here. Rubio was drafted as a teenage wonder but right next to another PG, so that should show for starters how committed was Minnesota to him. Even as those teams were maturing, he was not the keystone on them, he wasn’t either in Utah and he won’t be in Phoenix as well, Booker and Ayton are our main cogs, and Rubio is just a complementary piece. And even if a big one, you can point failure or success on him.
What percentage of the cap did Fisher and H***y take up? My guess is that it was far less than Rubio's percentage with the Suns. Sure, this is an imperfect way to measure a player's impact, but it does suggest it may be foolish to assume Rubio will be a massive game changer.

Im excited for October to be here already.
This does help dispel the notion that Rubio might have a Nash like effect on this team...which I’ve seen a few times on here. Rubio will help us, but we’re not handing the keys over to him. This team still lives and dies on Booker/Ayton. Rubio helps put Booker into the role he should be playing on offense, which should make things easier on him. But Rubio is still just a complimentary player.
What is a Nash like effect?

Off the top of my head:

- pass first point guard which generates greater team involvement which leads to;
- better chemistry via the promotion of team over hero ball e.g. everyone looks for the extra pass, both of which have a side effect of;
- inflating the statistics of the players around said pass first point guard.

Looking at Wiggins and KAT stats, Rubio looks like he could have a Nash like effect here in Phoenix.
The Nash like effect I’m talking about is the suns going from 27 wins to 62 wins after signing Nash. We had a very talented team that just needed someone to run it. Nash controlled everything on that team. We literally lost 6 games in a row when he got hurt. Rubio will not be the vital to the team. He’s going to help, he’ll get players better looks, but we won’t be close to a 35 win turnaround.

Sorry bro, just nerding out on definitions.

"We had a very talented team that just needed someone to run it"

The sickest - would Rubio have got them to the playoffs? My guess is yes, pretty easily...Nash took less than 11 shots a game his first year here (Harden averaged 25 last year for reference, although Nash admits in hindsight he / the Suns got it wrong, that he should have shot more) so it was his facilitating that was the feature. Rubio should make it the same, even more so as his shooting isn't great.

Random causes for optimism:

- in his last three seasons in Minnesota Rubio averaged more assists / 36 than Nash did in his last 3 seasons in Dallas (10.0 vs 8.5)
- every season in Minnesota Rubio improved his shooting across the board, similar for Nash but he continued to improve even after he arrived in Phoenix.

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SDC
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Re: Suns sign Rubio

Post by SDC » Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:18 am

Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:06 am
My main concern about the current likely starting lineup (Rubio, Booker, Oubre, Saric, Ayton) is defense. We arguably have 4 out of those 5 guys who are bad defenders; only Rubio is above-average on D for his position. I love that starting lineup offensively, but will we give back just as many points and more on the defensive end?
i'd rather see

rubio, booker, bridges, saric, ayton.

oubre should sacrifice for the team's interest.

Phoenix219
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Re: Suns sign Rubio

Post by Phoenix219 » Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:51 pm

3rdside wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:17 am
Split T wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:30 pm
3rdside wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:00 am
Split T wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:20 am
jonh wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 8:12 am


What percentage of the cap did Fisher and H***y take up? My guess is that it was far less than Rubio's percentage with the Suns. Sure, this is an imperfect way to measure a player's impact, but it does suggest it may be foolish to assume Rubio will be a massive game changer.

Im excited for October to be here already.
This does help dispel the notion that Rubio might have a Nash like effect on this team...which I’ve seen a few times on here. Rubio will help us, but we’re not handing the keys over to him. This team still lives and dies on Booker/Ayton. Rubio helps put Booker into the role he should be playing on offense, which should make things easier on him. But Rubio is still just a complimentary player.
What is a Nash like effect?

Off the top of my head:

- pass first point guard which generates greater team involvement which leads to;
- better chemistry via the promotion of team over hero ball e.g. everyone looks for the extra pass, both of which have a side effect of;
- inflating the statistics of the players around said pass first point guard.

Looking at Wiggins and KAT stats, Rubio looks like he could have a Nash like effect here in Phoenix.
The Nash like effect I’m talking about is the suns going from 27 wins to 62 wins after signing Nash. We had a very talented team that just needed someone to run it. Nash controlled everything on that team. We literally lost 6 games in a row when he got hurt. Rubio will not be the vital to the team. He’s going to help, he’ll get players better looks, but we won’t be close to a 35 win turnaround.

Sorry bro, just nerding out on definitions.

"We had a very talented team that just needed someone to run it"

The sickest - would Rubio have got them to the playoffs? My guess is yes, pretty easily...Nash took less than 11 shots a game his first year here (Harden averaged 25 last year for reference, although Nash admits in hindsight he / the Suns got it wrong, that he should have shot more) so it was his facilitating that was the feature. Rubio should make it the same, even more so as his shooting isn't great.

Random causes for optimism:

- in his last three seasons in Minnesota Rubio averaged more assists / 36 than Nash did in his last 3 seasons in Dallas (10.0 vs 8.5)
- every season in Minnesota Rubio improved his shooting across the board, similar for Nash but he continued to improve even after he arrived in Phoenix.
None of this discussion or comparison works or matters if they don't run a system similar to 7SOL.

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3rdside
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Re: Suns sign Rubio

Post by 3rdside » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:49 am

Phoenix219 wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:51 pm
3rdside wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:17 am
Split T wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:30 pm
3rdside wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:00 am
Split T wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:20 am


This does help dispel the notion that Rubio might have a Nash like effect on this team...which I’ve seen a few times on here. Rubio will help us, but we’re not handing the keys over to him. This team still lives and dies on Booker/Ayton. Rubio helps put Booker into the role he should be playing on offense, which should make things easier on him. But Rubio is still just a complimentary player.
What is a Nash like effect?

Off the top of my head:

- pass first point guard which generates greater team involvement which leads to;
- better chemistry via the promotion of team over hero ball e.g. everyone looks for the extra pass, both of which have a side effect of;
- inflating the statistics of the players around said pass first point guard.

Looking at Wiggins and KAT stats, Rubio looks like he could have a Nash like effect here in Phoenix.
The Nash like effect I’m talking about is the suns going from 27 wins to 62 wins after signing Nash. We had a very talented team that just needed someone to run it. Nash controlled everything on that team. We literally lost 6 games in a row when he got hurt. Rubio will not be the vital to the team. He’s going to help, he’ll get players better looks, but we won’t be close to a 35 win turnaround.

Sorry bro, just nerding out on definitions.

"We had a very talented team that just needed someone to run it"

The sickest - would Rubio have got them to the playoffs? My guess is yes, pretty easily...Nash took less than 11 shots a game his first year here (Harden averaged 25 last year for reference, although Nash admits in hindsight he / the Suns got it wrong, that he should have shot more) so it was his facilitating that was the feature. Rubio should make it the same, even more so as his shooting isn't great.

Random causes for optimism:

- in his last three seasons in Minnesota Rubio averaged more assists / 36 than Nash did in his last 3 seasons in Dallas (10.0 vs 8.5)
- every season in Minnesota Rubio improved his shooting across the board, similar for Nash but he continued to improve even after he arrived in Phoenix.
None of this discussion or comparison works or matters if they don't run a system similar to 7SOL.
Williams might be known for coaching a slower pace but, if you believe him, he's also aware of the importance of ball movement and adapting his style to a roster (https://arizonasports.com/story/1946858 ... ing-style/).

With Rubio, Booker, Saric - and Ayton i guess - we have a bunch of natural playmakers + the increased speed of the league....I don't think there's only one way to maximise Rubio's passing skills, if that's what you're suggesting?

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AmareIsGod
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Re: Suns sign Rubio

Post by AmareIsGod » Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:13 pm

SDC wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:18 am
Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:06 am
My main concern about the current likely starting lineup (Rubio, Booker, Oubre, Saric, Ayton) is defense. We arguably have 4 out of those 5 guys who are bad defenders; only Rubio is above-average on D for his position. I love that starting lineup offensively, but will we give back just as many points and more on the defensive end?
i'd rather see

rubio, booker, bridges, saric, ayton.

oubre should sacrifice for the team's interest.
Oubre is a plus defender with extremely long arms and athleticism. Why not develop Bridges into a great piece off of the bench? I'm not sure why you have such a negative perspective of Oubre. This isn't the first time you've made mention of him in what seems to be a disagreeable lense.
What is smallball? I play basketball. I'm not a regular big man. I can switch from the center to the guards. The game is evolving. You got dudes like Joel Embiid, Anthony Davis, all these 7-footers, doing everything. There's no stopping us. - Ayton

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Indy
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Re: Suns sign Rubio

Post by Indy » Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:07 pm

AmareIsGod wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:13 pm
SDC wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:18 am
Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:06 am
My main concern about the current likely starting lineup (Rubio, Booker, Oubre, Saric, Ayton) is defense. We arguably have 4 out of those 5 guys who are bad defenders; only Rubio is above-average on D for his position. I love that starting lineup offensively, but will we give back just as many points and more on the defensive end?
i'd rather see

rubio, booker, bridges, saric, ayton.

oubre should sacrifice for the team's interest.
Oubre is a plus defender with extremely long arms and athleticism. Why not develop Bridges into a great piece off of the bench? I'm not sure why you have such a negative perspective of Oubre. This isn't the first time you've made mention of him in what seems to be a disagreeable lense.
I know defensive advance metrics are not great, but his DBPM and DRtg are both below water, so I am not sure what says he is a plus defender. I see a lot of action out of him when he is on the ball, but he does as much ball-watching as Book and gets completely confused and taken out of plays all the time.

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Indy
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Re: Suns sign Rubio

Post by Indy » Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:09 pm

And on that last part, I love the energy and swagger he brings to our team. But his offense is mediocre and his defense is sub-par. I am hoping both of those improve this year, but that is what his career has said so far.

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AmareIsGod
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Re: Suns sign Rubio

Post by AmareIsGod » Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:41 pm

Indy wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:09 pm
And on that last part, I love the energy and swagger he brings to our team. But his offense is mediocre and his defense is sub-par. I am hoping both of those improve this year, but that is what his career has said so far.
Would you prefer Oubre or Bridges start?
What is smallball? I play basketball. I'm not a regular big man. I can switch from the center to the guards. The game is evolving. You got dudes like Joel Embiid, Anthony Davis, all these 7-footers, doing everything. There's no stopping us. - Ayton

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Superbone
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Re: Suns sign Rubio

Post by Superbone » Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:35 pm

We're not paying Oubre Jr. that kind of money to come off the bench. I'll just tell you that right now.
Wormwood/Superbone 2019/2020 season bet: Suns win < 30 games, Wormwood wins, else 'Bone wins. 1 month avatar shame starting July 1st of winner's choosing.

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In2ition
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Re: Suns sign Rubio

Post by In2ition » Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:42 pm

Aren't the Suns paying Tyler more than Ricky?
"30 wins would be an extremely disappointing season" yeah, I said it and I mean it.

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Superbone
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Re: Suns sign Rubio

Post by Superbone » Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:58 pm

In2ition wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:42 pm
Aren't the Suns paying Tyler more than Ricky?
Touche'. But that was an inherited contract and doesn't count! :P

Would you rather have Anderson or Johnson? That was basically just a swap.
Wormwood/Superbone 2019/2020 season bet: Suns win < 30 games, Wormwood wins, else 'Bone wins. 1 month avatar shame starting July 1st of winner's choosing.

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Nodack
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Re: Suns sign Rubio

Post by Nodack » Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:20 pm

I love having Oubre on the team. I was a little skeptical because of his flamboyance at first but he grew on me with his intensity and hustle.

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SDC
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Re: Suns sign Rubio

Post by SDC » Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:23 am

Superbone wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:35 pm
We're not paying Oubre Jr. that kind of money to come off the bench. I'll just tell you that right now.
then play him starter minutes off the bench!

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Indy
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Re: Suns sign Rubio

Post by Indy » Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:46 am

AmareIsGod wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:41 pm
Indy wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:09 pm
And on that last part, I love the energy and swagger he brings to our team. But his offense is mediocre and his defense is sub-par. I am hoping both of those improve this year, but that is what his career has said so far.
Would you prefer Oubre or Bridges start?
I think our team is better with Bridges playing alongside Booker, because between Rubio and Bridges we should be able to cover up for Booker's awful defense. We also need a scoring punch off our bench, and that seems best filled by Oubre if Booker and Ayton are #1 and #2. But I realize his swagger/energy and overall feel about resigning here might be drastically impacted if he is coming off the bench. I would see what happens in training camp, but my general sense is that we should start him but pull him early and let him play every single minute that Booker and Ayton are not on the floor at the same time.

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O_Gardino
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Re: Suns sign Rubio

Post by O_Gardino » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:48 am

AmareIsGod wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:13 pm
SDC wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:18 am
Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:06 am
My main concern about the current likely starting lineup (Rubio, Booker, Oubre, Saric, Ayton) is defense. We arguably have 4 out of those 5 guys who are bad defenders; only Rubio is above-average on D for his position. I love that starting lineup offensively, but will we give back just as many points and more on the defensive end?
i'd rather see

rubio, booker, bridges, saric, ayton.

oubre should sacrifice for the team's interest.
Oubre is a plus defender with extremely long arms and athleticism. Why not develop Bridges into a great piece off of the bench? I'm not sure why you have such a negative perspective of Oubre. This isn't the first time you've made mention of him in what seems to be a disagreeable lense.
Oubre was a good defender for us last season, and I have high hopes for him. But I think it's fair to point out that he was not a plus defender in Washington. He took a lot of plays off.

I don't think we signed a guy who was just playing for a contract, but I do think the concerns about his value are fair. He'll have to play down the reputation he earned and it will take more than half a season in a contract year to convince everyone.
The league needs heroes, villains... and clowns. -- Aztec Sunsfan

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Mori Chu
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Re: Suns sign Rubio

Post by Mori Chu » Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:02 am

Indy's plan sounds about right. Start Oubre but stagger the minutes.

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In2ition
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Re: Suns sign Rubio

Post by In2ition » Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:21 am

Superbone wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:58 pm
In2ition wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:42 pm
Aren't the Suns paying Tyler more than Ricky?
Touche'. But that was an inherited contract and doesn't count! :P

Would you rather have Anderson or Johnson? That was basically just a swap.
That's a clown question, bro! J/k Of course, Johnson and it isn't even close. :D
"30 wins would be an extremely disappointing season" yeah, I said it and I mean it.

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In2ition
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Re: Suns sign Rubio

Post by In2ition » Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:19 am

Indy wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:46 am
AmareIsGod wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:41 pm
Indy wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:09 pm
And on that last part, I love the energy and swagger he brings to our team. But his offense is mediocre and his defense is sub-par. I am hoping both of those improve this year, but that is what his career has said so far.
Would you prefer Oubre or Bridges start?
I think our team is better with Bridges playing alongside Booker, because between Rubio and Bridges we should be able to cover up for Booker's awful defense. We also need a scoring punch off our bench, and that seems best filled by Oubre if Booker and Ayton are #1 and #2. But I realize his swagger/energy and overall feel about resigning here might be drastically impacted if he is coming off the bench. I would see what happens in training camp, but my general sense is that we should start him but pull him early and let him play every single minute that Booker and Ayton are not on the floor at the same time.
I don't really agree with this, unless Bridges comes out as the better player. I'm the biggest Booker apologist, but honestly he just needs to start giving a sh!t on the defensive end. He needs to be more focused every possession and give more effort. He shouldn't have to be covered for by everyone else on the floor. This is an effort problem off the ball, since his on the ball defense is actually pretty good. He shouldn't have the excuses of not having enough talent around him or carrying the offense every single game anymore.
Last edited by In2ition on Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
"30 wins would be an extremely disappointing season" yeah, I said it and I mean it.

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Superbone
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Re: Suns sign Rubio

Post by Superbone » Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:27 am

In2ition wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:19 am
Indy wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:46 am
AmareIsGod wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:41 pm
Indy wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:09 pm
And on that last part, I love the energy and swagger he brings to our team. But his offense is mediocre and his defense is sub-par. I am hoping both of those improve this year, but that is what his career has said so far.
Would you prefer Oubre or Bridges start?
I think our team is better with Bridges playing alongside Booker, because between Rubio and Bridges we should be able to cover up for Booker's awful defense. We also need a scoring punch off our bench, and that seems best filled by Oubre if Booker and Ayton are #1 and #2. But I realize his swagger/energy and overall feel about resigning here might be drastically impacted if he is coming off the bench. I would see what happens in training camp, but my general sense is that we should start him but pull him early and let him play every single minute that Booker and Ayton are not on the floor at the same time.
I don't really agree with this, unless Bridges comes out as the better player. I'm the biggest Booker apologist, but honestly he just needs to start giving a sh!t on the defensive end. He needs to be more focused every position and give more effort. He should have to be covered for by everyone else on the floor. This is an effort problem off the ball, since his on the ball defense is actually pretty good. He shouldn't have the excuses of not having enough talent around him or carrying the offense every single game anymore.
This for sure.
Wormwood/Superbone 2019/2020 season bet: Suns win < 30 games, Wormwood wins, else 'Bone wins. 1 month avatar shame starting July 1st of winner's choosing.

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Indy
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Re: Suns sign Rubio

Post by Indy » Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:33 am

What he should do and what he does do are not always in alignment. He is smart and had good size--there is no reason he should be so bad on defense. It wasn't just last year. It has been for 4 years. The question was about what I think will be most beneficial to the team. I didn't assume Booker would finally decide to play hard on defense. But even if he does, I still think that Bridges' shot will come around and he will be the better player on the court to match up with Rubio, Booker and Ayton.

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