Game Day: Bucks (12-12) @ Suns (12-13), Mon 12/15/14

[Indy]

Agreed. My point was, if it doesn't make us a better team for the next 2-3 years, don't do it. And paying Frye 8 million as he approaches the end of his career doesn't make sense.

[Shabazz]

The retroactive Frye love has gotten a little out of hand. I appreciate what he did for us and his unique skill-set and perhaps giving his money to IT will turn out to be a misguided move, but come on...

[Superbone]

The retroactive Frye love has gotten a little out of hand. I appreciate what he did for us and his unique skill-set and perhaps giving his money to IT will turn out to be a misguided move, but come on...

Where we going?

[Shabazz]

For all the spacing Frye provided, we'd be having similar issues if he was still around. Plumlee has been shit and playing him and Frye together gives us two frontcourt players who can't create for themselves and are not strong rebounders. Our biggest issues have been interior D, defensive rebounding and a lack of chemistry and defined roles among the 3 PGs. Frye solves none of those. "Spacing," the issue he does solve, is pretty far down the list of our problems right now.

With Plumlee crapping the bed and Len not quite ready from prime time, I'm much more comfortable having Markieff as the guy they share the frontcourt with. At least he's a player you can throw the ball to and say "go get me two points." You can't do that with Frye.

A few more stats:

Frye is averaging 8/5/1.5 with a PER of 8.75 in 33 minutes per game. Gross. His Real Plus/Minus, which supposedly looks past the box score stats and has always been a pro-Frye stat is .64, which is good for 99th in the league. His Offensive RPM, which last year was 3.92 (14th in the league), is at -.94.

Markieff, on the other hand is currently is giving us 15/6/2 with a PER of 17.5 in 30 mpg. His RPM is 27th in the league at 3.47 and his defensive RPM is 2.5, which is 20th.

Losing Channing Frye was not the problem. I've defended him in the past, but not paying him $8M this year, let alone 4 years from now was 100% the right call.

[Superbone]

That's a compelling argument, 'Bazz. Thanks.

[Shabazz]

Forgot to mention turnovers as one of our biggest issues. Not a problem Frye solves either.

[Mori Chu]

I totally agree that it doesn't make sense to long for Channing Frye. Our issues as a team run much deeper than that. To me it comes down to things like:

* Dragic is not the same after 365 straight days of pro basketball with no break. His body is worn down and he isn't able to repeat his strong last season.

* PJ Tucker also has regressed. He used to be a rock in our starting lineup, exactly what we needed: a 3-and-D SF who could guard elite swingmen and just generally be a great team contributor and role player. Took smart shots and hit corner 3s, played great D, provided energy and leadership. That's been much less constant and much bumpier so far. I worry that the current PJ may be the "real" one, given that he's struggling with substance abuse issues and off-the-court stuff. :-/

* Miles Plumlee is more "mediocre second half of last season" Plum than "awesome first half of last season" Plum. That's really too bad, but maybe it's okay because it gives more time to Len.

* The bench chemistry is awful with too many chuckers and not enough passing and ball movement. This starts to bleed into the starting lineup, too.


I think the Dragic and Tucker setbacks are the most damaging. I think if Dragic were our primary ballhandler and Tucker were doing his thing at 100% of last season's level, we would be doing just fine overall. Swapping Frye for Markieff is not the problem; Kieff is having a great year and is a positive contributor for us. We are also getting another pretty great season from Gerald Green off the bench. And Bledsoe, despite not being everything to everyone, is having a solid season and has been pretty consistent overall (certainly moreso than Dragic).

Maybe it'll just take another year and another offseason to get Dragic right, and hopefully to get PJ Tucker's head on straight and get him recommitted to being a starter and an NBA contributor every game. That plus the growth of our young guys and smart draft picks this coming summer, hopefully, makes me think we can still be on an upward trajectory.

[LazarusLong]

It would be nice to have another forward or center with some semblance of an offensive repertoire. After Kief, the dropoff is dramatic. Len is still learning, Plumlee doesn't seem to have confidence in his jumper and stops to think about his post moves often. The other guys aren't even in the conversation.

Another telling statistic: The Suns are 25th in the league in free-throw attempts. That's a product of hanging out at the arc and throwing bombs.

[In2ition]

Make a big trade, gut half the mediocre vets for something worthwhile, play and develop the young players even if it means a free fall, then hopefully put yourself in position to draft Okafor or Towns and perhaps Cauley-Stein w/ the Lakers pick. This team is boring me to death, and seems to find ways to lose instead of the other way around.

[OE32]

IIRC, Len beat up on Cauley-Stein when they played a couple years ago.

[Indy]

Make a big trade, gut half the mediocre vets for something worthwhile

Sounds great, but who wants to give something worthwhile for mediocre players?

[In2ition]

I thought he beat up on Noel.

[Indy]

Another telling statistic: The Suns are 25th in the league in free-throw attempts. That's a product of hanging out at the arc and throwing bombs.

The one thing we are great at (FT%) doesn't help us much when we can't get to the line...

[In2ition]

Make a big trade, gut half the mediocre vets for something worthwhile

Sounds great, but who wants to give something worthwhile for mediocre players?

Unfortunately, there isn't a big clamouring for those guys. Perhaps they just make the trade for nothing more than cap space.

[Ring_Wanted]

For all the spacing Frye provided, we'd be having similar issues if he was still around.

Of course Frye doesn't solve rebounding or defense, but our offense has been a big problem too. Stagnant and too one on one oriented. Extremely unpleasant to watch for long stretches and just too inconsistent. Less than 100 points against the likes of Nuggets, Pistons, Magic, Heat? Really?

That's where Frye made the real difference. His partnership with Dragic was crazy productive, to the tune of the most prolific pick and pop/roll combo in the league at 1.30 points per possession or so. That's a go to move and even something you can base a whole offense on. This is the only stat I care about. The guy did one thing but did it at an all nba level.

The difference from having that starting, plus Kieff off the bench, to what we have now with is just abysmal.

Maybe some of you differ, but with the gift of hindsight I pay Frye 8M instead of 7M to IT3 and I don't hesitate at all. All I can see is that this swap has turned a solution (offensively) into a problem (everywhere) and it's making Suns basketball pretty hard to watch again.

[Ring_Wanted]

* Dragic is not the same after 365 straight days of pro basketball with no break. His body is worn down and he isn't able to repeat his strong last season.

His explosion around the basket and off the dribble is clearly lacking compared to last year, and his shot was dead at the beginning of this season. This is where having a Bledsoe to share the load should be paying off, but their relationship has been totally altered by the addition of IT3.

* PJ Tucker also has regressed.

Visibly. He is totally out of shape and it shows. He is not longer a plus defender and doesn't have the energy to hustle so much. You can see this in his poor offensive rebounding. The fact that he is making a lot of threes is really saving his ass from the fire many other players have taken so far. I don't believe Dragic dominating the ball would solve his problem.

* Miles Plumlee is more "mediocre second half of last season" Plum than "awesome first half of last season" Plum. That's really too bad, but maybe it's okay because it gives more time to Len.

Plumlee's inability to get back to his impactful self has been a real blow. He was a huge part of what made this team good last year and it's basically gone now. His level of activity is disgusting.

* The bench chemistry is awful with too many chuckers and not enough passing and ball movement. This starts to bleed into the starting lineup, too.

Two microwaves like Green and IT is hard to sustain. It worked at the beginning of this season but that's not a formula I want to rely on. Just one of them is more than enough instant offense off the bench.

[SDC]

He has the best true shooting percentage on our team.

bledsoe?

what is the equation for True Shooting Percentage? how do you calculate it?

btw, bledsoe's shooting numbers are .437 FG and .318 3pt FG.

[SDC]

I don't think putting Frye back in makes us a legit playoff team.

the suns were a legit playoff team last year, even with bledsoe missing a lot of games. plumlee injured his knee midway thru last season and wasnt the same ever since.

[SDC]

Too bad Tolliver doesn't defend or rebound very well. It looks like Frye is being missed big time. I'd probably go back in time and give him that contract. Sure, it's on the high side especially as he ages but we're just not the same team this year. He would have been worth it.

1) i wouldnt have given frye that contract.

2) i would have traded for gasol last season (but u already know that). the suns would have made the playoffs, maybe all the way to 2nd or 3rd round, horny COTY, the undeserving mcdo EOTY. maybe that would have convinced frye to stick it out. then sign gasol to a 1 yr extension to calm the idiots here who are pau skeptics.

[SDC]

I don't think putting Frye back in makes us a legit playoff team.

it's more complicated than that.

1) the suns needed to shed 1 pg, but that in itself is not enough. #additionbysubtraction

2) even before the season started, even before the suns caved to bledsoe's demands, i predicted the suns will win 5 or 6 games less than last season because of frye's departure.

3) even with frye returning, the suns are just a top ten team in the L. i advocated getting gasol and ditching Len. even knowing Len's improvements, i would have STILL done that trade for gasol, 10 out of 10.

but this is all water under the bridge. goran will be gone next year, either by trade, or leaving for houston. this suns nightmare will end soon.