All Things Ayton

[Split T]

How does that compare with the other top ten centers?

Jokic is 10/4
Embiid is 4/3
Bam is 3.2/2.5
Sabonis is 7/3

[Shabazz]

I think we've moved beyond raw "rebounds per game" as a baseline for measuring rebounding effectiveness. Rebound rate is a better measure, and then you can get into stats like contested rebound % etc.

[Superbone]

I think what it comes down to with Ayton is that he has a lot of pretty high level skills, but there always seems to be a very important skill he lacks.

Does he have great touch around the basket? Yes he does, but he’s also contact averse and prefers hooks, floaters, and fadeaways over aggressive rim attacks.

Does he also have good touch from midrange? Yes he does, but he’s not a threat to attack off the dribble here, so teams will live with Ayton mid range shots(Great if he makes a high level of them, but it doesn’t bend the defense at all and Ayton isn’t a high level passer).

Side note that blends the two above, he’s a great play finisher when he gets the ball in his spots, but he doesn’t have the ability to get to his spots with the ball. He needs someone to pass it to him once he’s there.

He’s got elite physical skills(moving his feet, wingspan, speed in transition, size/strength). But he often doesn’t box out, jogs in transition, doesn’t contest, or doesn’t get back into the play after 1 strong effort.

He’s just this weird combination of elite skills without the complimentary attributes/skills that turn him into a max level guy. He needs to find some complimentary attributes.

1. Aggression
2. Hustle/motor
3. Dribbling

He just adds 1 or 2 of those and we’re good. I’d take hustle/motor first, then aggression, then dribbling.

Nailed it!

[JeremyG]

One of these players is Ayton and one is an All-Star center:

Code: Select all

FG%   Dist.      % of FGA by Distance		                 FG% by Distance	      	                Dunks		
 	         2P	0-3	3-10	10-16	16-3P   3P	 2P	0-3	3-10	10-16	16-3P	3P	 %FGA	#
.540	7.4	.989	.298	.380	.265	.047	.011	 .545	.714	.478	.498	.288	.083	.136	140
.589	7.7	.973	.313	.352	.223	.085	.027	 .597	.806	.532	.455	.467	.292	.131	110

The first player is Bam Adebayo; the second player is Ayton.

[specialsauce]

One of these players is Ayton and one is an All-Star center:

Code: Select all

FG%   Dist.      % of FGA by Distance		                 FG% by Distance	      	                Dunks		
 	         2P	0-3	3-10	10-16	16-3P   3P	 2P	0-3	3-10	10-16	16-3P	3P	 %FGA	#
.540	7.4	.989	.298	.380	.265	.047	.011	 .545	.714	.478	.498	.288	.083	.136	140
.589	7.7	.973	.313	.352	.223	.085	.027	 .597	.806	.532	.455	.467	.292	.131	110

The first player is Bam Adebayo; the second player is Ayton.

And unsurprisingly, both fan bases find these players extremely frustrating because of their horrendous contracts

If you were trying to make a point, this ain’t it

[virtual9mm]

Post the top 10 please

Top 10 by salary?

1. Nikola Jokic
2. Joel Embiid
3. Rudy Gobert
4. Anthony Davis
5. Domantas Sabonis (starting next year)
6. Kristaps Porzingis
7. Bam Adebayo
8. Deandre Ayton
9. Jaren Jackson Jr
10. Brook Lopez

Sorry, thanks but I meant in those stats categories if you can

No worries, I got you! These top ten lists are of all players BBRef lists as centers for 2022-23.

PPG:

1. Embiid: 33.1
2. Davis: 25.9
3. Jokic: 24.5
4. Porzingis: 23.2
5. Adebayo: 20.4
6. Sabonis: 19.1
7. Jackson: 18.6
8. Ayton: 18.0
9. Turner: 18.0
10. Vucevic: 17.6


RPG:

1. Davis: 12.5
2. Sabonis: 12.3
3. Jokic: 11.8
4. Gobert: 11.6
5. Adams: 11.5
6. Vucevic: 11.0
7. Capela: 11.0
8. Embiid: 10.2
9. Valanciunas: 10.2
10. Ayton: 10.0


PPG+RPG:

1. Embiid: 43.3
2. Davis: 38.4
3. Jokic: 36.3
4. Porzingis: 31.6
5. Sabonis: 31.4
6. Adebayo: 29.6
7. Vucevic: 28.6
8. Ayton: 28.0
9. Jackson: 25.4
10. Gobert: 25.0

The only 6 players who are on both the top ten lists for PPG and RPG are: Embiid, Davis, Jokic, Sabonis, Ayton, and Vucevic.

And the only 3 I’d pay at their current salary are the top 3 in the final category: Embiid, Davis and Jokic. And I wouldn’t pay Davis because he’s so unreliable. So really just Embiid and Jokic. All the rest are a colossal mistake of a contract

Conclusion: most top centers are overpaid?

[specialsauce]

Top 10 by salary?

1. Nikola Jokic
2. Joel Embiid
3. Rudy Gobert
4. Anthony Davis
5. Domantas Sabonis (starting next year)
6. Kristaps Porzingis
7. Bam Adebayo
8. Deandre Ayton
9. Jaren Jackson Jr
10. Brook Lopez

Sorry, thanks but I meant in those stats categories if you can

No worries, I got you! These top ten lists are of all players BBRef lists as centers for 2022-23.

PPG:

1. Embiid: 33.1
2. Davis: 25.9
3. Jokic: 24.5
4. Porzingis: 23.2
5. Adebayo: 20.4
6. Sabonis: 19.1
7. Jackson: 18.6
8. Ayton: 18.0
9. Turner: 18.0
10. Vucevic: 17.6


RPG:

1. Davis: 12.5
2. Sabonis: 12.3
3. Jokic: 11.8
4. Gobert: 11.6
5. Adams: 11.5
6. Vucevic: 11.0
7. Capela: 11.0
8. Embiid: 10.2
9. Valanciunas: 10.2
10. Ayton: 10.0


PPG+RPG:

1. Embiid: 43.3
2. Davis: 38.4
3. Jokic: 36.3
4. Porzingis: 31.6
5. Sabonis: 31.4
6. Adebayo: 29.6
7. Vucevic: 28.6
8. Ayton: 28.0
9. Jackson: 25.4
10. Gobert: 25.0

The only 6 players who are on both the top ten lists for PPG and RPG are: Embiid, Davis, Jokic, Sabonis, Ayton, and Vucevic.

And the only 3 I’d pay at their current salary are the top 3 in the final category: Embiid, Davis and Jokic. And I wouldn’t pay Davis because he’s so unreliable. So really just Embiid and Jokic. All the rest are a colossal mistake of a contract

Conclusion: most top centers are overpaid?

Conclusion: franchises need to stop paying the center position top money when they can’t lead franchises as #1 or 2 options with the exception of very few (Jokic, Embiid) generational talents

[virtual9mm]

Sorry, thanks but I meant in those stats categories if you can

No worries, I got you! These top ten lists are of all players BBRef lists as centers for 2022-23.

PPG:

1. Embiid: 33.1
2. Davis: 25.9
3. Jokic: 24.5
4. Porzingis: 23.2
5. Adebayo: 20.4
6. Sabonis: 19.1
7. Jackson: 18.6
8. Ayton: 18.0
9. Turner: 18.0
10. Vucevic: 17.6


RPG:

1. Davis: 12.5
2. Sabonis: 12.3
3. Jokic: 11.8
4. Gobert: 11.6
5. Adams: 11.5
6. Vucevic: 11.0
7. Capela: 11.0
8. Embiid: 10.2
9. Valanciunas: 10.2
10. Ayton: 10.0


PPG+RPG:

1. Embiid: 43.3
2. Davis: 38.4
3. Jokic: 36.3
4. Porzingis: 31.6
5. Sabonis: 31.4
6. Adebayo: 29.6
7. Vucevic: 28.6
8. Ayton: 28.0
9. Jackson: 25.4
10. Gobert: 25.0

The only 6 players who are on both the top ten lists for PPG and RPG are: Embiid, Davis, Jokic, Sabonis, Ayton, and Vucevic.

And the only 3 I’d pay at their current salary are the top 3 in the final category: Embiid, Davis and Jokic. And I wouldn’t pay Davis because he’s so unreliable. So really just Embiid and Jokic. All the rest are a colossal mistake of a contract

Conclusion: most top centers are overpaid?

Conclusion: franchises need to stop paying the center position top money when they can’t lead franchises as #1 or 2 options with the exception of very few (Jokic, Embiid) generational talents

Is it a center only thing?

[specialsauce]

No worries, I got you! These top ten lists are of all players BBRef lists as centers for 2022-23.

PPG:

1. Embiid: 33.1
2. Davis: 25.9
3. Jokic: 24.5
4. Porzingis: 23.2
5. Adebayo: 20.4
6. Sabonis: 19.1
7. Jackson: 18.6
8. Ayton: 18.0
9. Turner: 18.0
10. Vucevic: 17.6


RPG:

1. Davis: 12.5
2. Sabonis: 12.3
3. Jokic: 11.8
4. Gobert: 11.6
5. Adams: 11.5
6. Vucevic: 11.0
7. Capela: 11.0
8. Embiid: 10.2
9. Valanciunas: 10.2
10. Ayton: 10.0


PPG+RPG:

1. Embiid: 43.3
2. Davis: 38.4
3. Jokic: 36.3
4. Porzingis: 31.6
5. Sabonis: 31.4
6. Adebayo: 29.6
7. Vucevic: 28.6
8. Ayton: 28.0
9. Jackson: 25.4
10. Gobert: 25.0

The only 6 players who are on both the top ten lists for PPG and RPG are: Embiid, Davis, Jokic, Sabonis, Ayton, and Vucevic.

And the only 3 I’d pay at their current salary are the top 3 in the final category: Embiid, Davis and Jokic. And I wouldn’t pay Davis because he’s so unreliable. So really just Embiid and Jokic. All the rest are a colossal mistake of a contract

Conclusion: most top centers are overpaid?

Conclusion: franchises need to stop paying the center position top money when they can’t lead franchises as #1 or 2 options with the exception of very few (Jokic, Embiid) generational talents

Is it a center only thing?

Can you name a less valuable position?

[virtual9mm]

Well...it seems like the league is starting to prioritize size once again. Would argue that the trend against centers has gone too far.

[Vladimir_Taltos]

Jeremy...he's 7' 250lbs and ...here's a list of the 'most FTAs per game'...

Full List of FTAs Per Game

He's 78! There are 18!, 18! Point Guards in front of him. 6'1, 1901b Terry Rozier was 63rd! Terry gives up 11" and 60lbs on him...and he ranked 15 places better on FTAs.

Just...wow...

[JNix]

Stats wise Ayton looks like a pretty good player. The problem with that is his stats is almost solely based on his natural talent (which he has a ton of). He claims to work but since hes been with the Suns his game as not grown at all, and if anything hes actually regressed.

[Vladimir_Taltos]

Stats wise Ayton looks like a pretty good player. The problem with that is his stats is almost solely based on his natural talent (which he has a ton of). He claims to work but since hes been with the Suns his game as not grown at all, and if anything hes actually regressed.

That's why I put emphasis on FTAs, as those come when the player is trying to assert their will in the game. Passive players sleepwalking through don't get FTAs. He should be a 'Barkley' on the floor with his size and skills, and he's more like _________. Figure others can fill in the names of unmotivated big men to compare to...

[JeremyG]

Jeremy...he's 7' 250lbs and ...here's a list of the 'most FTAs per game'...

Full List of FTAs Per Game

He's 78! There are 18!, 18! Point Guards in front of him. 6'1, 1901b Terry Rozier was 63rd! Terry gives up 11" and 60lbs on him...and he ranked 15 places better on FTAs.

Just...wow...

You're once again skewing reality to fit the Ayton hatin' narrative.

First of all, please use a legit stats site, like BBRef: https://www.basketball-reference.com/le ... _game.html

He was #71, and #16 among centers (and 3 of them are really PFs--Jackson Jr, Wood, and Olynyk). That's middle of the pack for starting centers--not some atrocious ranking like you make it out to be. And you act like guards don't/shouldn't get to the line as much as big men...it's actually the opposite. In those top 71, there are 16 centers and 12 PF, whereas there are 33 guards. In fact, 5 of the top 9 are point guards.

[JNix]

Middle of the pack is now the standard for "see heres the proof hes a good player?"

And 16th among centers isnt good.

[JeremyG]

Middle of the pack is now the standard for "see heres the proof hes a good player?"

And 16th among centers isnt good.

No, it's proof that he is not terrible at that one particular thing (FTA).

[Split T]

I’d use free throw rate where he’s 138th in the league and 36th among centers. Ayton has good and bad qualities, getting to the free throw is clearly one of his bad ones. He does make up for some of it in his very above average efficiency near the basket, but it’s still definitely a weakness of his

[Split T]

Here are the centers with lower free throw rates:

Brook Lopez
Nikola Vucevic
Naz Reid
Isaiah Hartenstein
Mike Muscala
Bobby Portis
Al Horford

None of those guys play down low like Ayton. Most are stretch bigs.

[Superbone]

Happy Birthday, Jeremy!

https://arizonasports.com/story/3528186 ... n-offense/

Frank Vogel: Suns will involve Deandre Ayton more on offense

“I’m off to a great start with him from a relationship standpoint in terms of understanding that if we want him to defend and rebound at an All-Star level, then we’re going to have to involve him a little more in the offense. That’s just basketball 101, you learn that as a youngster,” Vogel said when he joined Sirius XM NBA Radio this week at the NBA Summer League.

“You got to give those big guys the ball sometimes. When they get it, then they’ll run through the wall for you on the other end. I think we’re off to a great start with that. He’s going to be a big part of what we do.”

“I think we do,” Vogel said. “We’re definitely more offensively talented than defensively talented on this team, there’s no doubt about that. But if the big fella plays this year the way I think he can play and really anchors our defense, I think we can have guys really scrambling around the perimeter, flying around and competing on the basketball knowing that they got that giant behind them ready to block shots, rebound and get us out on the break.”

[TOO]

Oh boy can't wait to see more blown layups while Beal KD and Book all roll their eyes. Gonna be great.