I get that Marion has the advantage of being more of a 2-way player, but I think you need about 10 seasons of being a great player (All-NBA/All-Star level play) to be in the conversation of the HOF. I think Richmond achieved that with Golden State and Sacramento. He had a ten-year span of being one of the best shooting guards and scorers in the league. After that, his time with Washington was utterly forgettable.
Marion had about 7 seasons of borderline greatness, where he was a 20-10 threat. Outside of that, he's been just a really good role player for the majority of his career. That's not HOF material, IMHO.
INFORMER wrote:I think Shawn Marion Hall of Fame talk is ridiculous.
I don't think it's that far-fetched. Take away the guaranteed HOFers and basketball-reference's hall of fame predictor has Marion leading the pack at 75% chance. Statistically speaking, only KG and Hakeem can beat Marion in career points/rebounds/blocks/steals. I realize stats aren't everything and the biggest factor going against Marion is that he was really just a super role player. But I'm not sure we've seen a role player as versatile as Marion was. I think his defense was underrated over his career. Had he played on a good defensive team, I think you'd see a lot more all-nba defensive awards. Statistically speaking, hes pretty close to Scottie Pippen, just without all the titles.
Mitch Richmond was a go-to scorer that averaged 20 ppg over the duration of 10 years. I remember at one point he was considered the best shooting guard in the league after Jordan retired if I recall correctly.
Amare wasn't able to be a center because of his own gifts so much as Marion's ability to play power forward while undersized. Marion was alternately a shooter, a playmaker, a post threat, a leak-out culprit and always a stopper.
I think that's romanticizing Shawn a bit. He was not a shooter, not a playmaker nor a post threat. He was a tremendous fast break player and finisher and a top notch defender. He put up great stats as a PF but gave up a lot on the defensive end guarding PFs as well. I've always maintained the Suns weren't small because Amar'e was playing the 5 but because Shawn was playing the 4. You couldn't even say Shawn was a "stretch 4" because he wasn't a legitimate threat from the 3pt line, either shooting or driving. And you could argue he was a liability on offense when forced to play in a halfcourt set (his #s in Miami and Toronto dipped playing in a slower offense without fastbreak PGs).
That said, I do think Shawn is a HOFer. His #s are there and he has a ring.
Who stays? Who goes? If we consolidate, what position do we upgrade? What's the biggest glut? PG? Or SG? Or SF? I say SF, because I don't see us trading Tucker, and TJ has tremendous upside, and Marcus can't be moved unless his brother is moved, and he's our go-to halfcourt scorer. What a puzzle! Anyone got a clue?
zoran is a shooting guard in this league. marcus can play some PF.
Mori Chu wrote:In terms of the roster going forward and who stays/goes, sadly I think it's almost certain that Dragic will leave. We just have too many guards and too much money tied up in them. And, most damning of all, Dragic isn't McD's guy; he didn't sign him or pursue him, so he doesn't get the credit for him. And GMs are personal and petty like that.
It makes me sad, because in my mind Dragic is the best player on our team, a guy who should spend the rest of his career here. But I doubt that will happen. I'd give anything to keep Goran rather than Bledsoe. I'd give up BOTH Bledsoe and IT (despite the fact that they're playing well right now) if it meant that Dragic would stay. I just like watching the guy that much. I'm already pre-emptively being sad about his hypothetical departure at the end of the year. I think teams like the Lakers and Rockets are going to throw a ton of money at him and we won't want to match.
if you want goran to stay, better hope the suns make the playoffs this year, even as an 8th seed.
A) Never 1st Team All-NBA
B) Named All-NBA 2 times and to 4 All-Star Games
C) 1,000 career games played
Shawn Marion
Tom Chambers
At his peak, Marion was probably a little better for a little longer than Chambers was. And they were just about as different a pair of player as you could find.
Another list of players with similar career achievements....
1,000 GP, Career WS of 120-130
Buck Williams [1 All-NBA, 3 ASG]
Elvin Hayes [6 All-NBA, 12 ASG]
Chauncey Billups [2 All-NBA, 5 ASG]
Shawn Marion [2 All-NBA, 4 ASG]
Scottie Pippen [7 All-NBA, 7 ASG]
Patrick Ewing [7 All-NBA, 10 ASG]
Steve Nash [7 All-NBA, 8 ASG]
Walt Bellamy [0 All-NBA, 4 ASG]
Hayes, Pippen, Ewing and Bellamy are in the HoF, Nash and Billups aren't eligible yet. Bellamy is in mainly because he was a great college player and was probably the 3rd best center in the league in the first half of the 1960s behind Russell and Chamberlain. Hayes, Pippen, Nash and Ewing all clearly had greater careers than Marion when you look at their individual accomplishments. I would have to compare Marion to Chauncey Billups and Buck Williams, with all three of them being borderline Hall of Famers at best. To an extent all three were all compilers, but they were also very good players when they were at their peak, just never good enough to be considered among the very best in the league.
The main problem with Marion's candidacy is that he was never considered one of the top players in the league. In his entire career he only managed two MVP votes, one 5th place vote in 2004-05 and another in 2005-06.
Last edited by The Bobster on Fri Jan 23, 2015 6:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
Author of The Basketball Draft Fact Book: A History of Professional Basketball's College Drafts
Available from Scarecrow Press at - https://rowman.com/ISBN/9780810890695
iLLmatic wrote:Mitch Richmond was a go-to scorer that averaged 20 ppg over the duration of 10 years. I remember at one point he was considered the best shooting guard in the league after Jordan retired if I recall correctly.
Richmond was a pretty weak HoF candidate, he only received MVP votes in three seasons, 1995-96, 1996-97 and 1997-98 and finished 17th, 13th and 14th in the balloting those three years. He was pretty similar to Reggie Miller, a guy who could score but never enough to challenge for a scoring title, and nothing else to their games that really jumps out at you. Clyde Drexler couldn't shoot like they could, but he was a better player.
Author of The Basketball Draft Fact Book: A History of Professional Basketball's College Drafts
Available from Scarecrow Press at - https://rowman.com/ISBN/9780810890695
First off, I think the Hall of Fame has inducted some players who were very good but not all-time greats, and Marion would meet that requirement. He's not out of place with guys like Reggie Miller, Mitch Richmond, Jamaal Wilkes, Chris Mullin, Joe Dumars, etc. Some of those guys won more championships or had better college careers, but there isn't a whole lot of difference among them as pros.
I think there are two kinds of players who are worthy of consideration.
One is players who were unquestionably among the best players in the game at a one point. Be it Charles Barkley, Bill Walton, Moses Malone, David Robinson or Jerry West, they were all considered to be among all-time greats when they were playing.
The other is players who were among the top players in the league for a few years. Basically guys who played at a first-team All-NBA level for at least a few seasons (Paul Westphal, Steve Nash, Nate Archibald, Connie Hawkins, Dave Cowens) or were perennial All-Stars for most of their career (Bob Lanier, Dominique Wilkins, Allen Iverson, Elvin Hayes, Dolph Schayes).
Having standards like these would at least shut up the people who think Robert Horry belongs in the Hall of Fame.
Author of The Basketball Draft Fact Book: A History of Professional Basketball's College Drafts
Available from Scarecrow Press at - https://rowman.com/ISBN/9780810890695
I really don't think the championship carries weight in his candidacy.
I am more impressed by a guy like Moses Malone carrying a crappy team like the 1980-81 Rockets (who finished the regular season at 40-42) to game 6 of the NBA Finals than I am Shawn Marion being the third or fourth best player on a championship team.
Author of The Basketball Draft Fact Book: A History of Professional Basketball's College Drafts
Available from Scarecrow Press at - https://rowman.com/ISBN/9780810890695
SDC wrote:if the suns and spurs have the same record, which team gets the 7th spot?
First tie-breaker for two teams not in the same division is head-to-head (they have split two games with two more to play). Next is conference record (Suns 13-12, Spurs 17-13), next would be record against playoff teams in the Western Conference, then record against playoff teams in the Eastern Conference, and then net points in all games played.
Author of The Basketball Draft Fact Book: A History of Professional Basketball's College Drafts
Available from Scarecrow Press at - https://rowman.com/ISBN/9780810890695
Marion was alternately a shooter, a playmaker, a post threat, a leak-out culprit and always a stopper.
He was the ultimate garbage collector, versatile defender (from Tony Parker to Dirk), rebounder at 6'7, and for some time he was the best athlete in the L which allowed him to be a terror in the fast break and a stats hoarder, but a post threat? With what post skills/moves? Playmaker? Shooter? He made shots/threes some seasons but he was far from the definition of a shooter.
If I was not a Suns fan I believe I'd say he shouldn't be in, but then I see the Alonzo Mournings and I can see the case so whatever.
Marion was alternately a shooter, a playmaker, a post threat, a leak-out culprit and always a stopper.
He was the ultimate garbage collector, versatile defender (from Tony Parker to Dirk), rebounder at 6'7, and for some time he was the best athlete in the L which allowed him to be a terror in the fast break and a stats hoarder, but a post threat? With what post skills/moves? Playmaker? Shooter? He made shots/threes some seasons but he was far from the definition of a shooter.
If I was not a Suns fan I believe I'd say he shouldn't be in, but then I see the Alonzo Mournings and I can see the case so whatever.
We never used him out of the post but Miami and Dallas did on occasion, didn't see enough to know how effective he was at it though
NotTraxxe wrote:
Teams are prepared to pay luxury tax this offseason.
So keep in mind that we may position ourselves to do that now. It is a valid strategy to get expiring players and to pay them larger and longer deals. In excess of the current salary cap for next year's season. The cap will be raised the following season and it would be a one year hit to get the best advantageous position for the new cap raises.
Our peeps are aware of this. And as of late they have been discussing paying Dragic and keeping Bledsoe long-term.
The discussion is around acquiring someone we can pay a big contract to and take the hit next year. To come out on top for a couple of years after that. Don't be surprised if we swing for the fences.
