All Things Ayton

[virtual9mm]

I am finding it unbelievable that some of the folks who were most vocal about Ayton as a defensive liability on the perimeter are ok with Nurkic. From what I have seen and what Blazers fans are saying, he's pretty much unplayable in the playoffs because it would be too easy to have guards isolate on him and torch him from the perimeter.

OG and Nurkic might make the situation more palatable. I do wonder if Nurkic might be ok for slowing down Jokic, though. Defensive stats on him are surprisingly good. But...is Nurkic even going to play?

My problem isn’t with Ayton being a defensive liability on the perimeter, it’s that he took a step backwards as a drop defender and rim protector. The stats say Nurkic defended the post and rim better than Ayton last year. I know Nurkic would be played off the floor in some lineups. I’m completely cool either going Eubanks or even KD at the 5(especially if OG is on the team). It’s still all about what the other piece is for me.

Then it is simple. If you are convinced that Ayton can't get back to form, you can trade him. But the trade has to improve the team and Nurkic simply won't. You're talking about Nurkic not even playing.

Yes that’s why I said it’s about the other piece for me. I wouldn’t trade him for just Nurkic

You have to improve at the forward slots so much -- and we signed some great role players already. Will the improvement there justify the big downgrade at center? Has to be a star or a star in his role.

[Flagrant Fowl]

They're pressed to get it done for themselves more so than Dame.

[virtual9mm]

They're pressed to get it done for themselves more so than Dame.

Then, squeeze them.

[Shabazz]

I am finding it unbelievable that some of the folks who were most vocal about Ayton as a defensive liability on the perimeter are ok with Nurkic. From what I have seen and what Blazers fans are saying, he's pretty much unplayable in the playoffs because it would be too easy to have guards isolate on him and torch him from the perimeter.

OG and Nurkic might make the situation more palatable. I do wonder if Nurkic might be ok for slowing down Jokic, though. Defensive stats on him are surprisingly good. But...is Nurkic even going to play?

My problem isn’t with Ayton being a defensive liability on the perimeter, it’s that he took a step backwards as a drop defender and rim protector. The stats say Nurkic defended the post and rim better than Ayton last year. I know Nurkic would be played off the floor in some lineups. I’m completely cool either going Eubanks or even KD at the 5(especially if OG is on the team). It’s still all about what the other piece is for me.

Then it is simple. If you are convinced that Ayton can't get back to form, you can trade him. But the trade has to improve the team and Nurkic simply won't. You're talking about Nurkic not even playing.

Yes that’s why I said it’s about the other piece for me. I wouldn’t trade him for just Nurkic

You have to improve at the forward slots so much -- and we signed some great role players already. Will the improvement there justify the big downgrade at center? Has to be a star or a star in his role.

I'm kind of with you on this. Is Caleb Martin actually that much better than KBD? What would we think of him if the Heat went out in the play-in game. I wouldn't do the Martin-Nurk deal.

OG, on the other hand, might be the perfect 5th starter for this group and worth the downgrade at C.

[virtual9mm]

Potentially

[Split T]

I am finding it unbelievable that some of the folks who were most vocal about Ayton as a defensive liability on the perimeter are ok with Nurkic. From what I have seen and what Blazers fans are saying, he's pretty much unplayable in the playoffs because it would be too easy to have guards isolate on him and torch him from the perimeter.

OG and Nurkic might make the situation more palatable. I do wonder if Nurkic might be ok for slowing down Jokic, though. Defensive stats on him are surprisingly good. But...is Nurkic even going to play?

My problem isn’t with Ayton being a defensive liability on the perimeter, it’s that he took a step backwards as a drop defender and rim protector. The stats say Nurkic defended the post and rim better than Ayton last year. I know Nurkic would be played off the floor in some lineups. I’m completely cool either going Eubanks or even KD at the 5(especially if OG is on the team). It’s still all about what the other piece is for me.

Then it is simple. If you are convinced that Ayton can't get back to form, you can trade him. But the trade has to improve the team and Nurkic simply won't. You're talking about Nurkic not even playing.

Yes that’s why I said it’s about the other piece for me. I wouldn’t trade him for just Nurkic

You have to improve at the forward slots so much -- and we signed some great role players already. Will the improvement there justify the big downgrade at center? Has to be a star or a star in his role.

This is where we differ. I don’t see Ayton as any kind of star. If we get a starter level wing back in return I take it. Especially one that can defend some point of attack, which I think is our biggest weakness. OG would be the dream here, but I’d do it for Caleb Martin as well. I think he’s an easier fit into the starting lineup and lets our new depth signings come off the bench.

[Kryptonic]

My problem isn’t with Ayton being a defensive liability on the perimeter, it’s that he took a step backwards as a drop defender and rim protector. The stats say Nurkic defended the post and rim better than Ayton last year. I know Nurkic would be played off the floor in some lineups. I’m completely cool either going Eubanks or even KD at the 5(especially if OG is on the team). It’s still all about what the other piece is for me.

Then it is simple. If you are convinced that Ayton can't get back to form, you can trade him. But the trade has to improve the team and Nurkic simply won't. You're talking about Nurkic not even playing.

Yes that’s why I said it’s about the other piece for me. I wouldn’t trade him for just Nurkic

You have to improve at the forward slots so much -- and we signed some great role players already. Will the improvement there justify the big downgrade at center? Has to be a star or a star in his role.

This is where we differ. I don’t see Ayton as any kind of star. If we get a starter level wing back in return I take it. Especially one that can defend some point of attack, which I think is our biggest weakness. OG would be the dream here, but I’d do it for Caleb Martin as well. I think he’s an easier fit into the starting lineup and lets our new depth signings come off the bench.

How I feel too…. Outside of the valley/bahamas, I don’t know if aytons really a star. He’s never made an all star game or all-nba team and thought those were the metrics you’d typically have to hit to be considered a “star” in this league. He’s shown he has star potential but haven’t seen him in a couple of years or on a continual basis. Hopefully this is the year if he’s still here.

[JNix]

Its crazy how many people still talk about Aytons "potential." Guys been in the league for 5 years.

Some people talking about allowing Vogel to try with Ayton and that Monty was part of the problem.
What if we dont trade Ayton and he doesnt change now that Montys gone. What if what hes shown you for 5 years truly is just who he is as a player.
Now you're almost certainly stuck with him or you're taking a lesser offer.

James Jones has seen this guy for 5 years and hes involved in trade discussions at every turn. Doesnt that tell you something? They obviously arent sold on him like many of us Suns fans.

If you can get OG and Nurkic that is an absolute HOME RUN.
"Potentially" Ayton could be better in the Suns lineup, but I dont know how anyone can actually think THIS is the year Ayton buys in and becomes the defensive anchor. In my eyes there is absolutely ZERO cchance of that happening, why I take this deal in a heart beat.

[Mori Chu]

If we made that Ayton for OG/Nurk deal: Would the intent be to re-sign OG to the max? Because that's probably what it would take, right? Are we sure we'd want to do that, or lose him after 1 year?

[Carno]

Not that I want to help this mind numbing Groundhog Day of a thread reach 200 but sadly any post I make helps it get there.
It’s clear that no one would be happy with an Ayton for Nurkic swap (even if the money matched).
But, would most be happy if the trade happened if the additional body was OG? Or Scoot?

Who would it take for you to be happy with the trade?

I've been saying that the Suns need a defensive, rebounding, rim-running center and a starting 3 and D wing in return for Ayton. OG and Nurkic is getting close to that. I can almost convince myself. OG is definitely the kind of 3 and D wing I'd like to see, but Nurkic just falls a little short. I still think I'd rather have Ayton.

OG alone is better than Ayton though…just put Nurkic on the bench and start Eubanks. Eubanks is exactly what you described you want at the 5.

OG is not better than Ayton, but its close (today... I still believe that Ayton can get much better). The Suns need Ayton's skill set more than OG's, however. And I guess I should amend my statement to say, "Starting-caliber, defensive, rebounding, rim-running center." I like Eubanks as a backup, but he isn't close to the quality of Ayton. Or Nurkic for that matter.. there is a reason Nurkic started over Eubanks.

OG was without question better than Ayton last year. His value is higher. Someone reportedly offered 3 1sts for him. No one is giving us 3 1sts for Ayton. Admittedly it’s hard to compare as they play different positions, and if you believe we need what Ayton offers more, I can’t tell you you’re wrong.

I do disagree though. I think finding what Ayton offers(rim protection, roll man, efficient finisher) is much easier than finding what OG offers(Elite 1-4 defense, good 3 pt shooting, and a touch of on ball ability). He’s a bigger version of Mikal(before the on ball growth during the 2nd half of last season).

The problem I believe though is you’re evaluating Ayton on what you think he can be. I’m evaluating him on what he’s been. His hypothetical ceiling is certainly high…my confidence in him reaching that is nearly zero.

Edit: For the record, I don’t think you’re necessarily wrong for evaluating Ayton on his potential. I just can’t do it anymore.

Good points. We're not as far off as it may seem. I like OG, and I don't hate Nurkic. It wasn't that long ago when Nurkic was considered one of the best centers in the league. But this deal isn't a "Home Run" as some others seem to think. Jarrett Allen over Nurkic would make it a "home run." I don't think Nurkic is a great fit.

I am definitely higher on Ayton than most, and you are right that I am considering his future growth. He is very young and immature, and that is what's holding him back. But he's clearly talented. Despite his shortcomings and Suns fans lofty expectations, he is...today...a very good player. 18 and 10 is very good. He gets 20 and 12 per 36..,consistently every year...as the third to fourth option. (OG is 17, 5, 2 per 36...how is he better?) Why does that get overlooked? Defensively, yes, he has slipped the past couple of seasons. I want to see how he responds to some new voices. In any case, over time and as Ayton matures, he will find his niche and be an effective player ala Brook Lopez (not exactly like him).

[Split T]

It’s not about the numbers for me. Ayton is the largest guy on the court. He should put up counting numbers. It’s always been about the effort level and the defense. I probably do at times take for granted his finishing ability and his rebounding, but I do feel you can get 80% of that from someone like Eubanks or Nurkic.

So the question to me is whether or not someone like OG or Martin(or whoever is the 2nd piece) is more than 20% better than their replacement(In this case it’s probably Keita Bates-Diop). OG definitely is and I think Martin might be(in this case we also keep KDB too).

But ultimately it comes down to I think big men are more easily replaceable. You can get by with a run of the mill big easier than getting by with a run of the mill wing.

Based on the roster construction, we’re not going to be asking Ayton to be a star. If we’re going to get the most value out of him, it’s going to be because he completely bought in on the defensive side. I’m just skeptical…he has some offensive skill but this is not going to be the team to develop that. We have too many better options. So if he is going to want more touches and he’s not gonna give 100% on defense, give me someone else and get me a wing that will play their role.

Side note, there is some risk that OG also doesn’t want to be a 4th option and won’t buy into the role we have for him. That is something to consider.

[Split T]

If we made that Ayton for OG/Nurk deal: Would the intent be to re-sign OG to the max? Because that's probably what it would take, right? Are we sure we'd want to do that, or lose him after 1 year?

Ya it is a worry. Do we have the role he wants as well? Questions we should ask if OG is actually an option.

[JeremyG]

But ultimately it comes down to I think big men are more easily replaceable. You can get by with a run of the mill big easier than getting by with a run of the mill wing.

We literally have 3 superstar wings. What we need is a big man.

[Kryptonic]

But ultimately it comes down to I think big men are more easily replaceable. You can get by with a run of the mill big easier than getting by with a run of the mill wing.

We literally have 3 superstar wings. What we need is a big man.

Looks at roster.... Whose your 3 superstar wings?

https://www.espn.com/nba/team/roster/_/ ... oenix-suns
https://www.nba.com/suns/roster

[Split T]

But ultimately it comes down to I think big men are more easily replaceable. You can get by with a run of the mill big easier than getting by with a run of the mill wing.

We literally have 3 superstar wings. What we need is a big man.

Beal and Booker are guards…there’s also no limit on how many wings you can have. We have 3 locked in players in the starting lineup(4 with Ayton). I’d rather upgrade that 5th spot and use a downgrade at the Ayton spot. This isn’t the 90s, we don’t have to have a star big man.

[specialsauce]

But ultimately it comes down to I think big men are more easily replaceable. You can get by with a run of the mill big easier than getting by with a run of the mill wing.

We literally have 3 superstar wings. What we need is a big man.

Exactly. And DA isn’t a big man. He’s a wannabe wing.

[Kryptonic]

But ultimately it comes down to I think big men are more easily replaceable. You can get by with a run of the mill big easier than getting by with a run of the mill wing.

We literally have 3 superstar wings. What we need is a big man.

Beal and Booker are guards…there’s also no limit on how many wings you can have. We have 3 locked in players in the starting lineup(4 with Ayton). I’d rather upgrade that 5th spot and use a downgrade at the Ayton spot. This isn’t the 90s, we don’t have to have a star big man.

Well.... Unless it's a bulldozer named Gianis

[Kryptonic]

But ultimately it comes down to I think big men are more easily replaceable. You can get by with a run of the mill big easier than getting by with a run of the mill wing.

We literally have 3 superstar wings. What we need is a big man.

Exactly. And DA isn’t a big man. He’s a wannabe wing.

lol sick burn

[Wally_West]

Id do a Ayton for Nurk/1 year OG rental. Book-Beal-OG-KD lineup when healthy, I just don’t know who beats that.

[Cap]

Id do a Ayton for Nurk/1 year OG rental. Book-Beal-OG-KD lineup when healthy, I just don’t know who beats that.

OGW?

She beat us every time during the Colangelo era (including the BC era).

During the Sarver era, she went away. Her interference was no longer needed since the franchise was adequately self sabotaging.

Now that Sarver is gone, she may return with a vengeance.