Game Day: Thunder (45-33) @ Suns (22-57), Fri 4/7/17

[Indy]

I posted that Rondo is really the only one since Isaiah Thomas and Magic. I guess Kidd eventually won, but he was just a role player.

So just Rondo in the last 30 years. Hmm.

[O_Gardino]

I posted that Rondo is really the only one since Isaiah Thomas and Magic. I guess Kidd eventually won, but he was just a role player.

Everybody on that team was a role player - even Dirk. Dirk only shot the ball 16 times a game on that team.

And what about Jason Williams who won with the Heat? He was a pass first guy (sort of).

I don't think it's about having a pass-first PG vs a scoring pg. I think it's about having a team where creating offense isn't just on one guy. If you have one guy doing everything, he'd better be one of the top 10 guys to ever play the game, and even then you have to teach him to trust and involve his teammates. That was the problem with Nash and Kidd in their primes. They had the ball too much.

In my very humble opinion.

[Split T]

I posted that Rondo is really the only one since Isaiah Thomas and Magic. I guess Kidd eventually won, but he was just a role player.

Everybody on that team was a role player - even Dirk. Dirk only shot the ball 16 times a game on that team.

And what about Jason Williams who won with the Heat? He was a pass first guy (sort of).

I don't think it's about having a pass-first PG vs a scoring pg. I think it's about having a team where creating offense isn't just on one guy. If you have one guy doing everything, he'd better be one of the top 10 guys to ever play the game, and even then you have to teach him to trust and involve his teammates. That was the problem with Nash and Kidd in their primes. They had the ball too much.

In my very humble opinion.

Wade was the primary ball handler on that heat team. Williams averaged 3.9 assists a game in the playoffs that year.

I don't know why pass first point guards haven't had too much success. It might just be a lot easier to build a team around an elite scorer.

[JustWinBaby]

I posted that Rondo is really the only one since Isaiah Thomas and Magic. I guess Kidd eventually won, but he was just a role player.

Everybody on that team was a role player - even Dirk. Dirk only shot the ball 16 times a game on that team.

And what about Jason Williams who won with the Heat? He was a pass first guy (sort of).

I don't think it's about having a pass-first PG vs a scoring pg. I think it's about having a team where creating offense isn't just on one guy. If you have one guy doing everything, he'd better be one of the top 10 guys to ever play the game, and even then you have to teach him to trust and involve his teammates. That was the problem with Nash and Kidd in their primes. They had the ball too much.

In my very humble opinion.

I could not agree more. I think Boris Diaw never received the credit he deserved while he was here. He was that additional ball handler and passer that really made us special. We all wanted him to shoot more but he always kept the defense guessing an moving. He played an important role with Popovich and I believe is still contributing a lot in Utah. We really could use someone like him. Maybe Bender is that guy down the road.

This is why I am interested in Jackson. A bigger playmaker that can play defense and is an athletic freak.

I can envision and get excited about a lineup of (Bender, Chriss, Jackson, Booker and Bledsoe) being one that will share the ball and that has the potential to develop defensively.

[Indy]

I posted that Rondo is really the only one since Isaiah Thomas and Magic. I guess Kidd eventually won, but he was just a role player.

Everybody on that team was a role player - even Dirk. Dirk only shot the ball 16 times a game on that team.

And what about Jason Williams who won with the Heat? He was a pass first guy (sort of).

I don't think it's about having a pass-first PG vs a scoring pg. I think it's about having a team where creating offense isn't just on one guy. If you have one guy doing everything, he'd better be one of the top 10 guys to ever play the game, and even then you have to teach him to trust and involve his teammates. That was the problem with Nash and Kidd in their primes. They had the ball too much.

In my very humble opinion.

I think you could say that any team built around a single guy holding the ball much more than anyone else is not built for success. I would love to see the stats posted for that, but I doubt we have any of that data before SportsVue.

[Superbone]

That OKC team has a pretty paranoid level of protection around its players to keep the media away from them. They have the local hoops media scared to write anything negative about the team or any of the players.

Keep in mind that the team is fostering that. You don't become that way without enablers all around you.

The situation in OKC reminds me of a ted talk on what makes successful teams. It's been a while since I listened to it, but here was my takeaway:

Basically, she and her team did a big study looking for stars in the business world, and they found that business teams that had a "star culture" for their best or specially talented people weren't very successful. Successful business teams took more of a flat culture approach, where everyone is just part of the group and people help each other out despite perceived talent differences. What's really interesting is that they thought there must be some need for star culture in businesses where there really are stars. So they studied Hollywood and found the same results. Despite one or two of the actors being actual stars, shows were more successful when everyone was treated as a person, and (at least internally) nobody was treated as a Star or a Scrub.

IMO, you can see the same thing with the Spurs and Patriots. And OKC seems to me to be the team that embraced star culture.

It would be interesting to look at the best way to keep "stars" in mid-market teams, too. I know everyone points to San Antonio as the prime example of how it can be done, but really they started off the Duncan era (the last 18 years) with a championship his 2nd year, and that goes a long way to keeping people. And obviously the "star" treatment in OKC didn't keep Durant...

Depends a lot on the personel too. Duncan, Parker, and Ginobili didn't need the star treatment and were willing to take less money to stay together and keep their dynasty going.

[Indy]

That OKC team has a pretty paranoid level of protection around its players to keep the media away from them. They have the local hoops media scared to write anything negative about the team or any of the players.

Keep in mind that the team is fostering that. You don't become that way without enablers all around you.

The situation in OKC reminds me of a ted talk on what makes successful teams. It's been a while since I listened to it, but here was my takeaway:

Basically, she and her team did a big study looking for stars in the business world, and they found that business teams that had a "star culture" for their best or specially talented people weren't very successful. Successful business teams took more of a flat culture approach, where everyone is just part of the group and people help each other out despite perceived talent differences. What's really interesting is that they thought there must be some need for star culture in businesses where there really are stars. So they studied Hollywood and found the same results. Despite one or two of the actors being actual stars, shows were more successful when everyone was treated as a person, and (at least internally) nobody was treated as a Star or a Scrub.

IMO, you can see the same thing with the Spurs and Patriots. And OKC seems to me to be the team that embraced star culture.

It would be interesting to look at the best way to keep "stars" in mid-market teams, too. I know everyone points to San Antonio as the prime example of how it can be done, but really they started off the Duncan era (the last 18 years) with a championship his 2nd year, and that goes a long way to keeping people. And obviously the "star" treatment in OKC didn't keep Durant...

Depends a lot on the personel too. Duncan, Parker, and Ginobili didn't need the star treatment and were willing to take less money to stay together and keep their dynasty going.

After they already won rings though.

[Cap]

That OKC team has a pretty paranoid level of protection around its players to keep the media away from them. They have the local hoops media scared to write anything negative about the team or any of the players.

Keep in mind that the team is fostering that. You don't become that way without enablers all around you.

The situation in OKC reminds me of a ted talk on what makes successful teams. It's been a while since I listened to it, but here was my takeaway:

Basically, she and her team did a big study looking for stars in the business world, and they found that business teams that had a "star culture" for their best or specially talented people weren't very successful. Successful business teams took more of a flat culture approach, where everyone is just part of the group and people help each other out despite perceived talent differences. What's really interesting is that they thought there must be some need for star culture in businesses where there really are stars. So they studied Hollywood and found the same results. Despite one or two of the actors being actual stars, shows were more successful when everyone was treated as a person, and (at least internally) nobody was treated as a Star or a Scrub.

IMO, you can see the same thing with the Spurs and Patriots. And OKC seems to me to be the team that embraced star culture.

It would be interesting to look at the best way to keep "stars" in mid-market teams, too. I know everyone points to San Antonio as the prime example of how it can be done, but really they started off the Duncan era (the last 18 years) with a championship his 2nd year, and that goes a long way to keeping people. And obviously the "star" treatment in OKC didn't keep Durant...

Depends a lot on the personel too. Duncan, Parker, and Ginobili didn't need the star treatment and were willing to take less money to stay together and keep their dynasty going.

After they already won rings though.

Didn't work with Wade.

[O_Gardino]

I posted that Rondo is really the only one since Isaiah Thomas and Magic. I guess Kidd eventually won, but he was just a role player.

Everybody on that team was a role player - even Dirk. Dirk only shot the ball 16 times a game on that team.

And what about Jason Williams who won with the Heat? He was a pass first guy (sort of).

I don't think it's about having a pass-first PG vs a scoring pg. I think it's about having a team where creating offense isn't just on one guy. If you have one guy doing everything, he'd better be one of the top 10 guys to ever play the game, and even then you have to teach him to trust and involve his teammates. That was the problem with Nash and Kidd in their primes. They had the ball too much.

In my very humble opinion.

I think you could say that any team built around a single guy holding the ball much more than anyone else is not built for success. I would love to see the stats posted for that, but I doubt we have any of that data before SportsVue.

Yeah, exactly.

[Superbone]

I posted that Rondo is really the only one since Isaiah Thomas and Magic. I guess Kidd eventually won, but he was just a role player.

Everybody on that team was a role player - even Dirk. Dirk only shot the ball 16 times a game on that team.

And what about Jason Williams who won with the Heat? He was a pass first guy (sort of).

I don't think it's about having a pass-first PG vs a scoring pg. I think it's about having a team where creating offense isn't just on one guy. If you have one guy doing everything, he'd better be one of the top 10 guys to ever play the game, and even then you have to teach him to trust and involve his teammates. That was the problem with Nash and Kidd in their primes. They had the ball too much.

In my very humble opinion.

I think you could say that any team built around a single guy holding the ball much more than anyone else is not built for success. I would love to see the stats posted for that, but I doubt we have any of that data before SportsVue.

Yeah, exactly.

Unfortunately, Bledsoe comes to mind.

[Indy]

I posted that Rondo is really the only one since Isaiah Thomas and Magic. I guess Kidd eventually won, but he was just a role player.

Everybody on that team was a role player - even Dirk. Dirk only shot the ball 16 times a game on that team.

And what about Jason Williams who won with the Heat? He was a pass first guy (sort of).

I don't think it's about having a pass-first PG vs a scoring pg. I think it's about having a team where creating offense isn't just on one guy. If you have one guy doing everything, he'd better be one of the top 10 guys to ever play the game, and even then you have to teach him to trust and involve his teammates. That was the problem with Nash and Kidd in their primes. They had the ball too much.

In my very humble opinion.

I think you could say that any team built around a single guy holding the ball much more than anyone else is not built for success. I would love to see the stats posted for that, but I doubt we have any of that data before SportsVue.

Yeah, exactly.

Unfortunately, Bledsoe comes to mind.

SportsVUE would have data on that. Any idea where we can find it?

[Split T]

This is the best I can find. Harden leads the league with 9 minutes spent with the ball in his hand. 8.9 minutes each for Westbrook and Wall. Data only goes back to 13-14, but other players who hit 8.0 at some point are Lillard, Kemba Walker, Chris Paul, and Isaiah Thomas. Bledsoe was at 6.7 this year.

http://stats.nba.com/players/touches/#! ... r%20Season


2nd on rockets is Beverly with 3.0 minutes per game. 2nd for okc is Semaj Christon at 2.7

[carey]

2nd on rockets is Beverly with 3.0 minutes per game. 2nd for okc is Semaj Christon at 2.7

[Split T]

He's the backup pg. So he gets to bring the ball up when Westbrook sits. I wish they had data on time of possession in the front court. PG's will always have inflated numbers for total time of possession.

[Indy]

This is the best I can find. Harden leads the league with 9 minutes spent with the ball in his hand. 8.9 minutes each for Westbrook and Wall. Data only goes back to 13-14, but other players who hit 8.0 at some point are Lillard, Kemba Walker, Chris Paul, and Isaiah Thomas. Bledsoe was at 6.7 this year.

http://stats.nba.com/players/touches/#! ... r%20Season


2nd on rockets is Beverly with 3.0 minutes per game. 2nd for okc is Semaj Christon at 2.7

Thanks!

Now I wonder if they can tell us how many of those 400 seconds per game were spent standing at the top of the key pounding the ball.

[Split T]

Well, it tells us harden averages 99 touches per game, has the ball 5.4 seconds per touch and dribbles 4.77 times per touch.
Westbrook is 100 touches, 5.34 seconds, and 4.95 dribbles. Wall is 88 touches, 6.02 seconds, and 5.93 dribbles. Wall is the leader in seconds and dribbles per touch.

[Superbone]

2nd on rockets is Beverly with 3.0 minutes per game. 2nd for okc is Semaj Christon at 2.7

You need to remember that name for NBA trivia purposes. He's the guy that Westbrook passed to for his final assist to get his record breaking 42nd triple double against the Nuggets. (He hit a three pointer in the corner.)