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Re: Suns Off-Season Thread
Posted: Mon May 16, 2022 6:57 am
by specialsauce
Drewsprocket wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 10:39 pm
specialsauce wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 10:24 pm
Superbone wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 10:16 pm
And there it is.
Ah yes, #theExcuse
? It was pretty apparent that he has no legs.
Sounds like his problem not ours. If you’re injured every single year when we need you most, you know what they call that? Failure
Re: Suns Off-Season Thread
Posted: Mon May 16, 2022 8:17 am
by The Bobster
Split T wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 4:53 am
JeremyG wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 11:31 pm
Split T wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 9:15 pm
JeremyG wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 9:09 pm
Split T wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 8:05 pm
This team is all in on right now. LeBron kills the future, but opens the window for next year. It’s the ultimate all-in move.
That's insane to break up your young core and years of future success to go all in to try to win with a 38-year old point guard who breaks down in the playoffs. Lol.
I’m only moving Ayton…that’s not breaking up the young core. I’m done with him.
Lol, without Ayton you don’t have a young core that can be successful after Paul.
Booker-Bridges-Cam
Ayton would be great at 20 million…he puts a 2nd round ceiling on our team at the max. My done with him take was probably too harsh, but I’m done with him as a potential cornerstone. He’s Jarrett Allen, Clint Capela, Myles Turner, etc. He’s not Jokic, Embiid, or even KAT.
Bridges and Johnson can't create their own shot and you'd probably be looking at a .500 team if those are your three best players.
I doubt we will see big changes because they were so successful in the regular season. Maybe a bigger PF who can score, maybe a third guard who can generate some offense, but nothing earth-shattering. They aren't in the situation that Utah is where they see their window closing and they haven't had ANY playoff success.
Re: Suns Off-Season Thread
Posted: Mon May 16, 2022 8:23 am
by Split T
The Bobster wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 8:17 am
Split T wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 4:53 am
JeremyG wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 11:31 pm
Split T wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 9:15 pm
JeremyG wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 9:09 pm
That's insane to break up your young core and years of future success to go all in to try to win with a 38-year old point guard who breaks down in the playoffs. Lol.
I’m only moving Ayton…that’s not breaking up the young core. I’m done with him.
Lol, without Ayton you don’t have a young core that can be successful after Paul.
Booker-Bridges-Cam
Ayton would be great at 20 million…he puts a 2nd round ceiling on our team at the max. My done with him take was probably too harsh, but I’m done with him as a potential cornerstone. He’s Jarrett Allen, Clint Capela, Myles Turner, etc. He’s not Jokic, Embiid, or even KAT.
Bridges and Johnson can't create their own shot and you'd probably be looking at a .500 team if those are your three best players.
I doubt we will see big changes because they were so successful in the regular season. Maybe a bigger PF who can score, maybe a third guard who can generate some offense, but nothing earth-shattering. They aren't in the situation that Utah is where they see their window closing and they haven't had ANY playoff success.
Agreed on Bridges and Cam…they are 4th/5th guys. But having 3/5 of a starting lineup at 25 years old is pretty good. Ideally you fetch your #3 with an Ayton trade. Then you just need depth and to find another top 3 level guy to replace CP3…that’s a problem that exists regardless of what we do with CP3. Ideally you get your current #3 that can slide to #2 as CP3 ages out and then you don’t have to find a top 2 guy, just a third piece. And while I wouldn’t count on it, maybe Bridges or Johnson has leveled up.
Re: Suns Off-Season Thread
Posted: Mon May 16, 2022 8:27 am
by Split T
How would you guys feel if our only real move is say adding Eric Gordon? So Ayton and the rest of our top 6 returns.
Go in with a top 7 of Paul/Booker/Bridges/Crowder/Ayton/Gordon/Johnson
Fill in the peripherals with exceptions and vet minimums, plus whatever is left over from this years team(Shamet, Craig, Wainright) I’m assuming Payne and Saric are in the Gordon trade. Let’s say we do it with a top 25 protected 1st that becomes 2 2nds if it’s top 25.
Re: Suns Off-Season Thread
Posted: Mon May 16, 2022 8:39 am
by TOO
Still doesn't solve the lack of hustle, back up PG, Bookers inability to handle a trap, or Aytons lack of testosterone.
Re: Suns Off-Season Thread
Posted: Mon May 16, 2022 8:44 am
by Split T
It doesn’t, just wonder how people would feel with essentially a run it back plan. Hard to imagine retaining Ayton though
Re: Suns Off-Season Thread
Posted: Mon May 16, 2022 9:29 am
by LazarusLong
It would not surprise me if Cam Johnson is moved, if the right trade came along.
To get better, sometimes an otherwise key player is traded.
Re: Suns Off-Season Thread
Posted: Mon May 16, 2022 10:30 am
by Split T
Yep, Ayton, Cam, and Mikal are all great players but none of them can be an actual sidekick to Booker.
Re: Suns Off-Season Thread
Posted: Mon May 16, 2022 10:48 am
by Drewsprocket
Split T wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 8:27 am
How would you guys feel if our only real move is say adding Eric Gordon? So Ayton and the rest of our top 6 returns.
Go in with a top 7 of Paul/Booker/Bridges/Crowder/Ayton/Gordon/Johnson
Fill in the peripherals with exceptions and vet minimums, plus whatever is left over from this years team(Shamet, Craig, Wainright) I’m assuming Payne and Saric are in the Gordon trade. Let’s say we do it with a top 25 protected 1st that becomes 2 2nds if it’s top 25.
No matter what Payne should go. It’s sad. But one shit season and an even worse playoff performance backing up an aging star isn’t going to cut it. It’s weird to think that selecting Haliburton or trading for Gordon likely would have made up the difference to losing the Mavs series. Last summer, all I wanted was the suns to sign Patty Mills.
But if DA is gone, then we need a PF/C who scores the ball without being spoon fed.
Re: Suns Off-Season Thread
Posted: Mon May 16, 2022 11:09 am
by djy2j
Split T wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 8:44 am
It doesn’t, just wonder how people would feel with essentially a run it back plan. Hard to imagine retaining Ayton though
I just can't see it being a good idea. 2 collapses in epic form in 2 consecutive years will mess with your psyche. If they ran it back again and found themselves in similar adversities they'd more that likely have PTSD and falter again.
I have loved watching this team but it's better to move on from some of the guys who were a part of this.
Re: Suns Off-Season Thread
Posted: Mon May 16, 2022 11:18 am
by JeremyG
Split T wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 8:27 am
How would you guys feel if our only real move is say adding Eric Gordon? So Ayton and the rest of our top 6 returns.
Go in with a top 7 of Paul/Booker/Bridges/Crowder/Ayton/Gordon/Johnson
Fill in the peripherals with exceptions and vet minimums, plus whatever is left over from this years team(Shamet, Craig, Wainright) I’m assuming Payne and Saric are in the Gordon trade. Let’s say we do it with a top 25 protected 1st that becomes 2 2nds if it’s top 25.
That's exactly what I'm saying we should do. Keep the team together, while making small changes like adding a piece like Gordon or even a PF perhaps.
But that will only happen if Sarver is forced out.
Re: Suns Off-Season Thread
Posted: Mon May 16, 2022 11:47 am
by Shabazz
I think Ayton is taking too much heat here for the loss. I’d still rather max him and move him down the line then trade for some of these pu pu platters you guys are suggesting. They’d lock us in to mediocrity for years.
Much more blame should be going to CP, Monty and James.
Re: Suns Off-Season Thread
Posted: Mon May 16, 2022 12:24 pm
by Nodack
Re: Suns Off-Season Thread
Posted: Mon May 16, 2022 12:31 pm
by Drewsprocket
TOO wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 8:39 am
Still doesn't solve the lack of hustle, back up PG, Bookers inability to handle a trap, or Aytons lack of testosterone.
JJ said it best; that Book getting blitzed was because CP3 wasn’t able to or was just not aggressive with his own shooting. Book doubled. They were playing 4 on 5 on offense.
CP3 should not have been out there for whatever reason.
Re: Suns Off-Season Thread
Posted: Mon May 16, 2022 12:35 pm
by Superbone
First of all, just want to say I appreciate all of you. Good to have a place to commiserate and talk about potential changes and improvements. That was the worst possible end of our season imaginable after our record breaking regular season. But you could see the writing on the wall. I think TOO nailed it with it starting after the Knicks/Cam Johnson game. That was the beginning of the end. Last year we peaked in the playoffs.
Here's my thinking after reading all of your thoughts thus far and stewing over it all night and this morning.
We can't just throw it all away and make major changes. We have to build on what we have. I don't think we have to move on from Paul but we have to make some major changes in how we use him. His body obviously can't take all those regular season minutes. We have to stop playing for the regular season and start building for the playoffs. It doesn't matter if we have home court throughout if we are burnt when we get there. The Warriors get this. I think we need to keep Paul's minutes to about 24 per game whether he likes it or not and then play a competent PG the rest of them. I'm not sure who that is. It doesn't seem like Payton is up to it. Maybe give Holiday a shot or bring somebody else in. Like others have pointed out, it's a shame as we could have had Haliburton and we botched our handling of Smith.
Regarding our core, Book stays of course. I hope he learned a lot from this season and these playoffs. Mikal, Johnson, Ayton on the other hand, we have a lot of possibilities. We have to at least keep two of the three but I'm not adverse to moving one of them as much as I like them if the right deal comes along. One trade in particular comes to mind, way back when we traded my favorite player at the time, Larry Nance, and got back KJ, Mark West, and Corbin which made a huge impact on our team. If we can find something that makes us better, we've got to do it. Otherwise, I guess we stand pat and try to make little changes to improve the team.
OK, and now about Ayton. I apologize to Jeremy in advance and I know that Ayton is a very polarizing topic around here. I agree that he wasn't the sole reason we lost this series but he sure didn't help much either. I went back and forth about whether he was worth a max contract throughout the year and throughout the playoffs. I really just don't think he is. He's not an alpha, he's a beta. He has excellent skills and efficiency but he doesn't often assert himself. If he get "roughed up" at all like Powell and the Mavs did to him, he becomes quite ineffective. The Warriors did the same to him in one of our ending regular season games. Then he just kind of disappears.
Now, whether we have to pay him the max or not in order to not lose him for nothing is another story. There is no question now that we picked the wrong #1. So we pay him whatever we have to and then either work around him and put a bruiser enforcer who can shoot next to him or sign and trade him. But we have to be very selective in that case. No pu pu platters.
Re: Suns Off-Season Thread
Posted: Mon May 16, 2022 1:06 pm
by Drewsprocket
Superbone wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 12:35 pm
First of all, just want to say I appreciate all of you. Good to have a place to commiserate and talk about potential changes and improvements. That was the worst possible end of our season imaginable after our record breaking regular season. But you could see the writing on the wall. I think TOO nailed it with it starting after the Knicks/Cam Johnson game. That was the beginning of the end. Last year we peaked in the playoffs.
Here's my thinking after reading all of your thoughts thus far and stewing over it all night and this morning.
We can't just throw it all away and make major changes. We have to build on what we have. I don't think we have to move on from Paul but we have to make some major changes in how we use him. His body obviously can't take all those regular season minutes. We have to stop playing for the regular season and start building for the playoffs. It doesn't matter if we have home court throughout if we are burnt when we get there. The Warriors get this. I think we need to keep Paul's minutes to about 24 per game whether he likes it or not and then play a competent PG the rest of them. I'm not sure who that is. It doesn't seem like Payton is up to it. Maybe give Holiday a shot or bring somebody else in. Like others have pointed out, it's a shame as we could have had Haliburton and we botched our handling of Smith.
Regarding our core, Book stays of course. I hope he learned a lot from this season and these playoffs. Mikal, Johnson, Ayton on the other hand, we have a lot of possibilities. We have to at least keep two of the three but I'm not adverse to moving one of them as much as I like them if the right deal comes along. One trade in particular comes to mind, way back when we traded my favorite player at the time, Larry Nance, and got back KJ, Mark West, and Corbin which made a huge impact on our team. If we can find something that makes us better, we've got to do it. Otherwise, I guess we stand pat and try to make little changes to improve the team.
OK, and now about Ayton. I apologize to Jeremy in advance and I know that Ayton is a very polarizing topic around here. I agree that he wasn't the sole reason we lost this series but he sure didn't help much either. I went back and forth about whether he was worth a max contract throughout the year and throughout the playoffs. I really just don't think he is. He's not an alpha, he's a beta. He has excellent skills and efficiency but he doesn't often assert himself. If he get "roughed up" at all like Powell and the Mavs did to him, he becomes quite ineffective. The Warriors did the same to him in one of our ending regular season games. Then he just kind of disappears.
Now, whether we have to pay him the max or not in order to not lose him for nothing is another story. There is no question now that we picked the wrong #1. So we pay him whatever we have to and then either work around him and put a bruiser enforcer who can shoot next to him or sign and trade him. But we have to be very selective in that case. No pu pu platters.
Well said. I could see us running it back and if all goes well again, perhaps a Jordan Clarkson type or Eric Gordon would be all we need to win the west.
But I think Ayton is done. He’s needed a lot of attention and support and tactfulness to play his role. But the seams are starting to come apart. And Monty’s comments today come across as the sort of shit you say when you want GMs to send you their best offers.
Ideally, we would need to upgrade the PF with a unicorn who is bigger than Crowder, can switch onto anyone, can create for himself, and is an ace 3 pt shooter. To that end, we would keep Ayton.
Since it’s unlikely we’d find someone like that, we might be better off trading Ayton’s D for a better scorer at the five.
Re: Suns Off-Season Thread
Posted: Mon May 16, 2022 1:40 pm
by The Bobster
Split T wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 10:30 am
Yep, Ayton, Cam, and Mikal are all great players but none of them can be an actual sidekick to Booker.
If Booker is their best player they aren't getting anywhere.
Re: Suns Off-Season Thread
Posted: Mon May 16, 2022 2:43 pm
by Flagrant Fowl
IS THAT SPLIT'S MUSIC!?!?!
Re: Suns Off-Season Thread
Posted: Mon May 16, 2022 2:44 pm
by BigLewy
Could it be KD? That'd be something.
Re: Suns Off-Season Thread
Posted: Mon May 16, 2022 2:46 pm
by Flagrant Fowl
