Monty Williams

[Flagrant Fowl]

I’m going to ask this because I really don’t know. How many centers have been used like Ayton has in the pick and roll? Isn’t that usually an offense used with power forwards? Is this just the wrong offense for Ayton to be his best in?

Unlikely, but for the sake of debate, in what kind of offense would he be more successful?

He's most comfortable in the 10-15 foot range 1v1 against the defender on the baseline or around the free throw line. There's plenty of evidence that he doesn't really want to bully defenders at the rim and his shooting from 20+ feet is inconsistent at best.

He can't dribble with the purpose of beating a defender. He's slow reading defenses and is poor at anticipating double teams. In general, he's usually a step behind whatever the defense is throwing at him besides a straight up 1v1. So what scheme is the best for getting him opportunities in his comfort zone and mitigate his deficiencies?

I can't say for certain that it's the best, but something that is perimeter guard focused draws the defensive attention away from Ayton and more easily allows him to get into situations to score. The problem we're seeing right now is the Suns guards are struggling to score, so defenses are spending more time game planning to limit Ayton because they don't have to worry about Landry Shamet or Mikal Bridges shooting 15-23.

This whole debate ignores the possibility (and likelihood) that the best offense for maximizing Ayton may not be the best offense for maximizing THE SUNS.

Or winning basketball games.

[Split T]

I’m going to ask this because I really don’t know. How many centers have been used like Ayton has in the pick and roll? Isn’t that usually an offense used with power forwards? Is this just the wrong offense for Ayton to be his best in?

You’re right that the role he’s being used in used to be more of a PF role…at least in who used to be pick n roll players. But I’d say over the last 15 years, we’ve seen most teams switch to using 5s as their primary screen and roll players. That’s the role Amare played and he was a 5 for us. It’s the role Tyson Chandler, Deandre Jordan, Clint Capela, Rudy Gobert, etc. play. Now Ayton does get more looks than those guys because he’s more skilled and can actually finish non-lobs, but he’s basically one of those guys with a little extra.

I’m not sure what the best way to use Ayton is, he’s a very efficient finisher around the rim, but he can’t get to the rim without someone passing it to him. So you can’t really base an offense around him working out of the mid or high post, he’d take too many mid range jumpers and lose his efficiency. Maybe over time he’d start attacking more as we constantly fed him the ball, but that’s something you do on a rebuilding team. Though I wouldn’t be opposed to doing it now. Still, it seems like the best use of him is as a roll man who finishes after getting the ball from someone else. He’s better than most rim runners because he can catch further out and still finish efficiently, but he also doesn’t have the aggressiveness of most roll threats.

I’m trying to think of an example of how you can use Ayton and I’m just drawing a blank. Maybe Dwight in his Orlando days? He was mostly a roll man, but he wanted to be fed in the post and so Orlando obliged. He was a lot more aggressive than Ayton, but Ayton has much better touch. Dwight did get up to 20 points a game at times, but his best use was being an 18/12 guy who locked down anything near the rim defensively.

You could try to turn him into Duncan, but like I said, that would be something I’d want to do on a rebuilding team. He’d need to develop skills he hasn’t shown consistently yet. Like drawing fouls and dribbling.

[TOO]

No coach is going to turn Ayton into a great player because Ayton doesn't want to be one. He's got all the physical talent in the world but has yet to ever maximize it. It's not in his makeup.

[Superbone]

No coach is going to turn Ayton into a great player because Ayton doesn't want to be one. He's got all the physical talent in the world but has yet to ever maximize it. It's not in his makeup.

Maybe he needs to get a new compact. Or maybe switch to Estée Lauder.

[Flagrant Fowl]

I really like Ayton as a person. In a world where these guys are coddled and placated, many of them develop ugly personality traits. I haven't seen much of that from Ayton, if any at all. However, I still see him as quite immature. The video games, carne asada fries, even the half court shots in pre-game are all signs of him not being mature as a professional.

Maybe he grows out of that stuff or maybe the weight of greater expectations pushes him away from the game like we saw with Andrew Bynum.

[INFORMER]

This whole debate ignores the possibility (and likelihood) that the best offense for maximizing Ayton may not be the best offense for maximizing THE SUNS.

Or winning basketball games.

Exactly. I think Monty could improve in utilizing Ayton, but Ayton has plenty of shortcomings that keep him from being a star.

Bottom line, Ayton just hasn't shown the skill, motor, or reliability to warrant prioritizing him above everything else.

[INFORMER]

I think Monty got outcoached by Budenholzer and Jason Kidd in our two playoff exits. I think he has catered too much to Chris Paul too many times. And this season, he has been a mixed bag: I like that he has deprioritized Paul's role and pushed others to grow, but his schemes and lack of in-game adjustments are getting old. And there are too many nights where the team just isn't ready to compete.

I think you fire the coach when it is clear he is holding the team back or when there is an obvious better option. I don't believe either is the case here. The roster isn't very good; that is the top issue right now.

[JeremyG]

And let's not kid ourselves. The reason Jeremy started the thread is because he doesn't like the way Williams is utilizing Ayton and he personally wants him gone. And you know what, he could be right about the Ayton utilization. At least partially. I don't know.

Every new owner eventually hires their own people and it seems like it's usually within the first two years, so you're really not going out on that limb like you think you are. But it wouldn't surprise me if you dusted this off in 18 months and claimed clairvoyance.

I actually noted that fact early in the thread. So 85% of people voting were just in denial of reality, I guess? Is that your point?

Sure.

Lets pretend you didn't make this idiotic poll because of some weird fetish with blaming every one of Ayton's issues on anything but him.

So it's an idiotic poll and yet I'm one of only 3 people to select what you expect will be the right answer? Got it.

Nice to know that you guys can read my mind and know the reason why I post something.

[JeremyG]

I’m going to ask this because I really don’t know. How many centers have been used like Ayton has in the pick and roll? Isn’t that usually an offense used with power forwards? Is this just the wrong offense for Ayton to be his best in?

Unlikely, but for the sake of debate, in what kind of offense would he be more successful?

He's most comfortable in the 10-15 foot range 1v1 against the defender on the baseline or around the free throw line. There's plenty of evidence that he doesn't really want to bully defenders at the rim and his shooting from 20+ feet is inconsistent at best.

He can't dribble with the purpose of beating a defender. He's slow reading defenses and is poor at anticipating double teams. In general, he's usually a step behind whatever the defense is throwing at him besides a straight up 1v1. So what scheme is the best for getting him opportunities in his comfort zone and mitigate his deficiencies?

I can't say for certain that it's the best, but something that is perimeter guard focused draws the defensive attention away from Ayton and more easily allows him to get into situations to score. The problem we're seeing right now is the Suns guards are struggling to score, so defenses are spending more time game planning to limit Ayton because they don't have to worry about Landry Shamet or Mikal Bridges shooting 15-23.

This whole debate ignores the possibility (and likelihood) that the best offense for maximizing Ayton may not be the best offense for maximizing THE SUNS.

Or winning basketball games.

Yeah because we've sure been winning a lot of those lately.

Wouldn't a good coach at least adjust the offense when his best player is out and Ayton is now his best available player?

[JeremyG]

So you can’t really base an offense around him working out of the mid or high post, he’d take too many mid range jumpers and lose his efficiency. Maybe over time he’d start attacking more as we constantly fed him the ball, but that’s something you do on a rebuilding team. Though I wouldn’t be opposed to doing it now.

Mid or high post? Why not low post?

I’m trying to think of an example of how you can use Ayton and I’m just drawing a blank. Maybe Dwight in his Orlando days? He was mostly a roll man, but he wanted to be fed in the post and so Orlando obliged. He was a lot more aggressive than Ayton, but Ayton has much better touch. Dwight did get up to 20 points a game at times, but his best use was being an 18/12 guy who locked down anything near the rim defensively.

"Best use"? He took a team to the Finals when he averaged over 20 ppg.

[SunsRIt]

Jeremy I’m begging. Please stop. This is so old.

[TOO]

Jeremy is definitely just Ayton himself at this point right?

[Split T]

So you can’t really base an offense around him working out of the mid or high post, he’d take too many mid range jumpers and lose his efficiency. Maybe over time he’d start attacking more as we constantly fed him the ball, but that’s something you do on a rebuilding team. Though I wouldn’t be opposed to doing it now.

Mid or high post? Why not low post?

Because Ayton can’t get himself down to the low post with the ball. He requires someone to pass it to him and I just don’t think that’s a reliable base offense. It’s a recipe for a lot of turnovers and teams can game plan to deny it to easily.

[In2ition]

Ayton still isn't great at sealing his man when he posts up, although I've seen improvements in that area.

[Mori Chu]

Jeremy is definitely just Ayton himself at this point right?

No way. Jeremy is way too aggressive to be Ayton, and he doesn't drop the ball enough.

[Split T]

A little explanation from Monty on why Ayton doesn’t always get the ball everytime he wants

[JeremyG]

Here's a great article/interview from Rankin:

'Wanting the ball': Deandre Ayton addresses role in Phoenix Suns offense

I appreciate Ayton's maturity, and wanting to take responbility and learn and make improvements where he can--which he definitely has room to do. That said, Monty is gaslighting him a bit and making lame excuses. Sure maybe a couple times a game he was able to show him on film that he wasn't as open as he thought he was, but a lot of times he has been actually, really open and they don't get him the ball. Also, even when he's not really open because the opposing team crowds him or has guys behind him that he doesn't see, a lot of the time the problem even in those situations is that they don't find him quickly enough before the defense comes to help. Additionally, many times he's sealing his man down low in the center of the paint, where they have to find him immediately no matter what the defense does since he can only stay in there for 2 seconds. Monty needs to coach the rest of the team, too, on finding him when he really is open.

Also, Monty's the coach. It's his job to design/run plays for Ayton and find ways to get him the ball.

[JeremyG]

By the way I'm not the one who invented the hashtag #FireMonty. There was a long campaign by New Orleans fans for that years ago, because they were frustrated that Monty did not know how to use Anthony Davis or get him the ball enough. Sound familiar?

[Shabazz]

If Ayton didn’t dribble like Stanley from The Office, he wouldn’t need other players to constantly get him the ball in a position to score.

[Split T]

Funny thing is AD’s shot attempts went down the next year and New Orleans won 15 fewer games. Firing Monty didn’t seem to help AD or the team.