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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2021 7:55 pm
by 3rdside
Cap wrote:3rdside wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 7:26 pm
Shabazz wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 6:49 pm
Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 6:13 pm
Shabazz wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 5:25 pm
We lost Saric, Craig, Carter and a 1st and replaced that with Javale and Shamet. That may be an upgrade in the backcourt but feels like a downgrade in the frontcourt. And considering we had a full MLE, BAE and maybe a Saric DPE and all we used was half the MLE, it feels like a wasted opportunity to me. We won't have those tools next summer. But, yay, Frank is back in a Super-Pat-Burke role.
They're also good contract sizes to have for trade matching purposes. If a good player becomes available and we want to get in on the bidding, it will be hard to make that work.
I'm still keeping an open mind and hope that they're saving the other half of the MLE and/or the BAE for the buyout market.
I don't think we can put Saric with the group of guys lost this offseason. He's injured and has significantly less value because of it. So from a transactional point, they've replaced Craig, Carter, and the 29th pick with Shamet and McGee. We don't know if it'll work out, but they need to find out if Jalen Smith can play a role, so I'd also put him in the "additions" box for this season. I think that's an upgrade overall for this season.
The last part is confusing to me, maybe it's partially due to Sarver Suns PTSD. You're not satisfied with how they've used their cap space while acknowledging they have the flexibility to make a significant move during the season. There's no reason to lock into a roster during the summer or training camp. Now if the season goes by and the Suns don't maximize their chances to improve and eventually fall short of their goal, then I think we'll be in a position to be critical.
I think you have to factor in the Saric injury when comparing our roster to last season's. It's a reality. We likely don't have him for all of next season. You're kind of playing the reverse game with your Smith argument.
On the second part, my preference would have been to use at least one of those tools during the offseason - when free agents are known, not speculative. Then we'd have the second available for buyout season. We're probably not going to use both in-season.
3rdside wrote:Which we got via McGee and possibly the growth of Jalen Smith .. and Saric will be back for the playoffs.
That's not certain.
Torrey Craig is not a big, but that was his role and it caught us out badly in the finals, so no loss there.
He was no Giannis-stopper, but he was critical in earlier rounds.
Which we got in Shamet and we’ll also get via the development of two starters in Ayton, Bridges and a sixth man in Johnson.
None of that development precludes using the tools that were available to us to improve our team.
1. Saric I'd bet he will be ready but I'm not Nostradamus
2. Craig was inadequate for the reason that he wasn't tall enough *in the finals*; Giannis, Lopez and Fortis are huge and that was a huge part of the reason we lost.
3. Improving organically or via acquisitions are the same thing done different ways. Doing both isn't impossible but would Thadd be an absolute upgrade over Crowder especially when factoring in salaries ($3m difference), leadership (Crowder is king in the locker room), playoff experience and possible chemistry issues?
Is Thad supposed to be an upgrade over Crowder, or a complement to him? Crowder isn’t involved in the trade proposal as far as I’ve heard.
I thought about that but how do you make the salaries work?
They’re not taking Saric back I don’t think?
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2021 8:54 pm
by Superbone
I’ll let FLEX put you all at ease:
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:22 pm
by JeremyG
Superbone wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 8:54 pm
I’ll let FLEX put you all at ease:
As Bobby Marks said:
There's no such thing as "negotiating" one of these types of extensions. You're either willing to give him the full, guaranteed max (like Trae Young) or you aren't. It's not "complicated" like Flex tries to make it out to be.
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:27 pm
by JeremyG
I hope the same can be said for Ayton.
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:29 pm
by Split T
JeremyG wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:22 pm
Superbone wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 8:54 pm
I’ll let FLEX put you all at ease:
As Bobby Marks said:
There's no such thing as "negotiating" one of these types of extensions. You're either willing to give him the full, guaranteed max (like Trae Young) or you aren't. It's not "complicated" like Flex tries to make it out to be.
That’s just simply not true. There are plenty of things that can be negotiated and it still be considered a max deal. Yes the full escalator max that Trae got would be simple, but clearly the suns aren’t willing to just give him that right now. Hence why we are still negotiating.
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:24 am
by 3rdside
From 30.45 - Thad Young trade:
https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/o ... 0537667616
Summary:
- Feel is that Spurs do want to move him as their main issue is getting their roster down from 17 to 15 players.
- Can’t do anything until October 10th as the Spurs will want to include other players in a Young trade, but there’s a 60 day no-trade rule for some of their pieces (Aminu i think they said).
- Saric and Smith works for them, and they could use the disabled player exception for Saric, but feel is the Spurs want something better than that, and again they need to trim their roster.
- We don’t have 1st round picks to offer, none of our other guys can make up the salary if it’s Aminu that’s pegged with Young.
- While not impossible (no team other than the suns has really been mentioned as a destination) it doesn’t sound likely for us.
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2021 2:37 am
by bajanguy008
Interesting stuff regarding DA and I also think most of it is agent doing agent stuff but as I say all the time.....
I can't expend too much energy on rumours, I will stick to how guys and the team playing
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2021 7:38 am
by Indy
I am really confused by the take that we can't count Saric as a loss from last year's team when comparing rosters.
And Torrey was really big for us before the Finals (especially against Denver and the Clips).
Like Bazz put it:
OUT: Saric, Craig, Carter, late 1st
IN: McGee, Shamet
That is not an improvement in the front court, which is where we were most lacking last year. We better hope that Cam Johnson takes a huge leap forward this year and can defend well against bigger guys.
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:00 am
by ShelC
The way I look at it, Frank and Dario are kinda redundant and we were somewhat limited relying on Dario for such a big role of first big off the bench. Now we have Javale who gives us almost no dropoff from DA in terms of size, athleticism, and defense and still have Frank to play a Dario-like connector role in more limited minutes if need be.
Craig's defensive versatility and athleticism will be missed (as well as his shooting). He's a loss unless we grab a guy like Thad, or Hutchinson surprises us out of nowhere.
Generally speaking, I still feel like we're not a physically strong or imposing team. It's why I thought we really needed Crowder last year and Craig added some of that as well. But Book, Payne, Shamet, Mikal, Cam, even DA and Javale are thinner/slender guys. Not to say we're "soft" or a "finesse" team, just that I worry we can still get pushed around.
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:56 am
by In2ition
Indy wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 7:38 am
I am really confused by the take that we can't count Saric as a loss from last year's team when comparing rosters.
And Torrey was really big for us before the Finals (especially against Denver and the Clips).
Like Bazz put it:
OUT: Saric, Craig, Carter, late 1st
IN: McGee, Shamet
That is not an improvement in the front court, which is where we were most lacking last year. We better hope that Cam Johnson takes a huge leap forward this year and can defend well against bigger guys.
If you're hoping for an improvement from the front court, then your hopes are probably more on a big improvement from Stix than Cam, tbh.
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:57 am
by In2ition
virtual9mm wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 7:18 pm
I don't like how Ayton is using Oubre's agent. It worked out poorly for everyone involved.
Is this true? What could possibly go wrong?
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2021 10:33 am
by Indy
In2ition wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:56 am
Indy wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 7:38 am
I am really confused by the take that we can't count Saric as a loss from last year's team when comparing rosters.
And Torrey was really big for us before the Finals (especially against Denver and the Clips).
Like Bazz put it:
OUT: Saric, Craig, Carter, late 1st
IN: McGee, Shamet
That is not an improvement in the front court, which is where we were most lacking last year. We better hope that Cam Johnson takes a huge leap forward this year and can defend well against bigger guys.
If you're hoping for an improvement from the front court, then your hopes are probably more on a big improvement from Stix than Cam, tbh.
Even if there is an improvement there, it would have to be monumental compared to where he ended last year. Like historic.
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:05 am
by In2ition
Indy wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 10:33 am
In2ition wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:56 am
Indy wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 7:38 am
I am really confused by the take that we can't count Saric as a loss from last year's team when comparing rosters.
And Torrey was really big for us before the Finals (especially against Denver and the Clips).
Like Bazz put it:
OUT: Saric, Craig, Carter, late 1st
IN: McGee, Shamet
That is not an improvement in the front court, which is where we were most lacking last year. We better hope that Cam Johnson takes a huge leap forward this year and can defend well against bigger guys.
If you're hoping for an improvement from the front court, then your hopes are probably more on a big improvement from Stix than Cam, tbh.
Even if there is an improvement there, it would have to be monumental compared to where he ended last year. Like historic.
He was starting as a negative, so if he has a major improvement, it wouldn't take that much. He was decent in the summer league and first preseason, but we need him to be good at PF, and that will be much harder.
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:23 am
by JeremyG
Split T wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 7:32 am
He showed up when it mattered and that’s highly encouraging, but I’m fine keeping him hungry. He’s said multiple times he’s motivated to get that 2nd contract..maybe making him play in a contract year is a good thing.
Then isn't that riskier than giving him the full escalators? If he's playing motivated he's more likely to be All-NBA and be eligible for the 30% supermax next summer.
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:29 am
by JeremyG
https://sports.yahoo.com/report-suns-st ... 06266.html
It’s not just the Deandre Ayton contract extension that the Phoenix Suns are messing up not getting done in the wake of reaching the NBA Finals.
[...]
With the salary cap expected to go up in a couple of years, even going a little over market value will not hurt in the long run.
That is a huge point also. People acting like a max deal for Ayton + a fair deal for Bridges will destroy our future are not taking into account that these deals will look a lot cheaper after the salary cap jump.
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:32 am
by Drewsprocket
In2ition wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:05 am
Indy wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 10:33 am
In2ition wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:56 am
Indy wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 7:38 am
I am really confused by the take that we can't count Saric as a loss from last year's team when comparing rosters.
And Torrey was really big for us before the Finals (especially against Denver and the Clips).
Like Bazz put it:
OUT: Saric, Craig, Carter, late 1st
IN: McGee, Shamet
That is not an improvement in the front court, which is where we were most lacking last year. We better hope that Cam Johnson takes a huge leap forward this year and can defend well against bigger guys.
If you're hoping for an improvement from the front court, then your hopes are probably more on a big improvement from Stix than Cam, tbh.
Even if there is an improvement there, it would have to be monumental compared to where he ended last year. Like historic.
He was starting as a negative, so if he has a major improvement, it wouldn't take that much. He was decent in the summer league and first preseason, but we need him to be good at PF, and that will be much harder.
Our bench unit will better for the playoffs. I fully trust Cam Johnson’s growth (earmark for bigger role scoring the ball) + Javale Mcgee’s high motor, rim running/protecting, athleticism.
Weep not friendos-
Dario’s playoff high was 11pts, he wasn’t the same player prior to covid.
Craig was a good role player off the bench last year but not lengthy enough to defend the 5.
What matters here is the playoff rotation- Cam Payne, Shamet, Cam Johnson, and Javale Mcgee.
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:44 am
by carey
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:09 pm
by Indy
Drewsprocket wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:32 am
In2ition wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:05 am
Indy wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 10:33 am
In2ition wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:56 am
Indy wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 7:38 am
I am really confused by the take that we can't count Saric as a loss from last year's team when comparing rosters.
And Torrey was really big for us before the Finals (especially against Denver and the Clips).
Like Bazz put it:
OUT: Saric, Craig, Carter, late 1st
IN: McGee, Shamet
That is not an improvement in the front court, which is where we were most lacking last year. We better hope that Cam Johnson takes a huge leap forward this year and can defend well against bigger guys.
If you're hoping for an improvement from the front court, then your hopes are probably more on a big improvement from Stix than Cam, tbh.
Even if there is an improvement there, it would have to be monumental compared to where he ended last year. Like historic.
He was starting as a negative, so if he has a major improvement, it wouldn't take that much. He was decent in the summer league and first preseason, but we need him to be good at PF, and that will be much harder.
Our bench unit will better for the playoffs. I fully trust Cam Johnson’s growth (earmark for bigger role scoring the ball) + Javale Mcgee’s high motor, rim running/protecting, athleticism.
Weep not friendos-
Dario’s playoff high was 11pts, he wasn’t the same player prior to covid.
Craig was a good role player off the bench last year but not lengthy enough to defend the 5.
What matters here is the playoff rotation- Cam Payne, Shamet, Cam Johnson, and Javale Mcgee.
So we would have only 2 people in our rotation that are over 6-8. That seems lacking again.
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:10 pm
by Indy
JeremyG wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:29 am
https://sports.yahoo.com/report-suns-st ... 06266.html
It’s not just the Deandre Ayton contract extension that the Phoenix Suns are messing up not getting done in the wake of reaching the NBA Finals.
[...]
With the salary cap expected to go up in a couple of years, even going a little over market value will not hurt in the long run.
That is a huge point also. People acting like a max deal for Ayton + a fair deal for Bridges will destroy our future are not taking into account that these deals will look a lot cheaper after the salary cap jump.
Paying your 3rd or 4th best player $35-40M/year will never look cheap.
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:18 pm
by JeremyG
Indy wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:10 pm
JeremyG wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:29 am
https://sports.yahoo.com/report-suns-st ... 06266.html
It’s not just the Deandre Ayton contract extension that the Phoenix Suns are messing up not getting done in the wake of reaching the NBA Finals.
[...]
With the salary cap expected to go up in a couple of years, even going a little over market value will not hurt in the long run.
That is a huge point also. People acting like a max deal for Ayton + a fair deal for Bridges will destroy our future are not taking into account that these deals will look a lot cheaper after the salary cap jump.
Paying your 3rd or 4th best player $35-40M/year will never look cheap.
If we don't expect Ayton to be at least our 2nd best player within the next couple years then we should trade him right now.
In order for him not to be, it would take at least 2 of the following happening:
1. Zero improvement from Ayton.
2. Huge jump from Bridges or historic jump from another player.
3. Chris Paul being the best 38-year old to ever play.