Split T wrote:
It's obviously a very small sample size, but in the two games since the all star break, Williams has been significantly more productive. He had 17 points, 15 rebounds, 3 assists, 3 steals, and 1 block on 7/13 shooting against Milwaukee. Len had 6 points, 9 rebounds, 0 assists, 2 steals, and 0 blocks on 2/7 shooting. Against the bulls, Len was 4 points, 7 boards, 1 assist, 0 steals, and 2 blocks on 2/6 shooting. Williams was 16 points, 3 boards, 1 assist, 0 steals and blocks on 8/9 shooting. If Len wants to get paid, he's got to take advantage of these last 23 games. They can't continue to go like the last two.
O_Gardino wrote:A few of you keep saying that Williams is outperforming Len, but I don't see it. I see Williams excelling in a very limited role and Len getting by in a much bigger one.
Williams is asked to set screens, rebound, and score on putbacks. And he's doing a very good job of those things, especially offensive rebounding. He's exceptional in that category.
Len is asked to do all of those things, and does a good job. His fg% around the basket is quite a bit higher than Williams'. His defensive rb% is about the same. He sets good screens and moves well after the screen. Plus, Watson asks Len to pass out of the high post, shoot midrange jumpers, back down other centers, make decisions with the ball, etc. He struggles with that part of the game. In fact, Len is often asked to be the # 2 or 3 guy on offense with the second unit, and he's just not good in that situation.
In my opinion, we are asking too much of Len, and just enough of Williams. Williams is good in his role, and I'm glad to have him playing it. Len is not good when we isolate him with the ball at 10 or 15 feet out. We should be looking at how he plays off the ball, how he moves on D, can he catch and shoot when he is open, and how well other guys play with him on the court.
It's obviously a very small sample size, but in the two games since the all star break, Williams has been significantly more productive. He had 17 points, 15 rebounds, 3 assists, 3 steals, and 1 block on 7/13 shooting against Milwaukee. Len had 6 points, 9 rebounds, 0 assists, 2 steals, and 0 blocks on 2/7 shooting. Against the bulls, Len was 4 points, 7 boards, 1 assist, 0 steals, and 2 blocks on 2/6 shooting. Williams was 16 points, 3 boards, 1 assist, 0 steals and blocks on 8/9 shooting. If Len wants to get paid, he's got to take advantage of these last 23 games. They can't continue to go like the last two.
Sure, Williams shot a lot better in both games. But Len rebounded better in both games, and my point about Lens shooting is that the coaching staff specifically runs plays for him that he cannot complete. Williams is just the dirt worker throwing down putbacks.
The league needs heroes, villains... and clowns. -- Aztec Sunsfan
O_Gardino wrote:A few of you keep saying that Williams is outperforming Len, but I don't see it. I see Williams excelling in a very limited role and Len getting by in a much bigger one.
Williams is asked to set screens, rebound, and score on putbacks. And he's doing a very good job of those things, especially offensive rebounding. He's exceptional in that category.
Len is asked to do all of those things, and does a good job. His fg% around the basket is quite a bit higher than Williams'. His defensive rb% is about the same. He sets good screens and moves well after the screen. Plus, Watson asks Len to pass out of the high post, shoot midrange jumpers, back down other centers, make decisions with the ball, etc. He struggles with that part of the game. In fact, Len is often asked to be the # 2 or 3 guy on offense with the second unit, and he's just not good in that situation.
In my opinion, we are asking too much of Len, and just enough of Williams. Williams is good in his role, and I'm glad to have him playing it. Len is not good when we isolate him with the ball at 10 or 15 feet out. We should be looking at how he plays off the ball, how he moves on D, can he catch and shoot when he is open, and how well other guys play with him on the court.
It's obviously a very small sample size, but in the two games since the all star break, Williams has been significantly more productive. He had 17 points, 15 rebounds, 3 assists, 3 steals, and 1 block on 7/13 shooting against Milwaukee. Len had 6 points, 9 rebounds, 0 assists, 2 steals, and 0 blocks on 2/7 shooting. Against the bulls, Len was 4 points, 7 boards, 1 assist, 0 steals, and 2 blocks on 2/6 shooting. Williams was 16 points, 3 boards, 1 assist, 0 steals and blocks on 8/9 shooting. If Len wants to get paid, he's got to take advantage of these last 23 games. They can't continue to go like the last two.
Sure, Williams shot a lot better in both games. But Len rebounded better in both games, and my point about Lens shooting is that the coaching staff specifically runs plays for him that he cannot complete. Williams is just the dirt worker throwing down putbacks.
Len only scores on plays where he is mostly open, or playing someone smaller than he is. He doesn't finish well, and doesn't have good hands (how many times do we see teams smack the ball away?). Williams does both of those really well. Len is a much better rim protector, but considering we don't have a player on this team that can stay in front of their guy on the perimeter, we are always putting Len in a position to have to switch over to stop a penetrator, leaving the center wide open for a dunk.
O_Gardino wrote:A few of you keep saying that Williams is outperforming Len, but I don't see it. I see Williams excelling in a very limited role and Len getting by in a much bigger one.
Williams is asked to set screens, rebound, and score on putbacks. And he's doing a very good job of those things, especially offensive rebounding. He's exceptional in that category.
Len is asked to do all of those things, and does a good job. His fg% around the basket is quite a bit higher than Williams'. His defensive rb% is about the same. He sets good screens and moves well after the screen. Plus, Watson asks Len to pass out of the high post, shoot midrange jumpers, back down other centers, make decisions with the ball, etc. He struggles with that part of the game. In fact, Len is often asked to be the # 2 or 3 guy on offense with the second unit, and he's just not good in that situation.
In my opinion, we are asking too much of Len, and just enough of Williams. Williams is good in his role, and I'm glad to have him playing it. Len is not good when we isolate him with the ball at 10 or 15 feet out. We should be looking at how he plays off the ball, how he moves on D, can he catch and shoot when he is open, and how well other guys play with him on the court.
It's obviously a very small sample size, but in the two games since the all star break, Williams has been significantly more productive. He had 17 points, 15 rebounds, 3 assists, 3 steals, and 1 block on 7/13 shooting against Milwaukee. Len had 6 points, 9 rebounds, 0 assists, 2 steals, and 0 blocks on 2/7 shooting. Against the bulls, Len was 4 points, 7 boards, 1 assist, 0 steals, and 2 blocks on 2/6 shooting. Williams was 16 points, 3 boards, 1 assist, 0 steals and blocks on 8/9 shooting. If Len wants to get paid, he's got to take advantage of these last 23 games. They can't continue to go like the last two.
Sure, Williams shot a lot better in both games. But Len rebounded better in both games, and my point about Lens shooting is that the coaching staff specifically runs plays for him that he cannot complete. Williams is just the dirt worker throwing down putbacks.
Len only scores on plays where he is mostly open, or playing someone smaller than he is. He doesn't finish well, and doesn't have good hands (how many times do we see teams smack the ball away?). Williams does both of those really well. Len is a much better rim protector, but considering we don't have a player on this team that can stay in front of their guy on the perimeter, we are always putting Len in a position to have to switch over to stop a penetrator, leaving the center wide open for a dunk.
According to Basketball Reference, Len shoots .633 from within 3 feet, and Williams shoots .568. Len turns it over about 16% of the time, and Williams turns it over about 15%.
I hate to be the guy defending Len here, but I think some of the criticism he gets is unfair. Williams is exciting to watch, because he's an undrafted guy who is over performing. Len is frustrating because he's a #5 pick and he sure isn't a star. We ask him to do a lot of things on offense that he doesn't do well, and on D we hang him out to dry quite a bit. He's not great, but he looks worse than he is.
The league needs heroes, villains... and clowns. -- Aztec Sunsfan
O_Gardino wrote:I hate to be the guy defending Len here, but I think some of the criticism he gets is unfair. Williams is exciting to watch, because he's an undrafted guy who is over performing. Len is frustrating because he's a #5 pick and he sure isn't a star. We ask him to do a lot of things on offense that he doesn't do well, and on D we hang him out to dry quite a bit. He's not great, but he looks worse than he is.
I think this is pretty fair. There are some things that Len does well - protect the rim, rebound - but he's never going to be a primary option offensively. It seems that a lot of his shots are contested - the difference between him and Williams being that Williams scores a lot of garbage points (mainly because his offensive rebounding rate is through the roof).
Author of The Basketball Draft Fact Book: A History of Professional Basketball's College Drafts
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It's all about value contracts. I'd much rather have Williams at what he will command over Len at what he will command. Honestly, paying both the same I may choose Williams over Len anyway. I think they're both destined to be backup 5's. Neither will be a starting 5 for a contender, and I'd rather have Williams motor off the bench.
Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:I don't know how you can say that Len could never be the starting center for a contender when he's just 23 years old.
Yeah, well Tsakalidis was 23 once. Jackson Vroman was 23 once. So was Alton Ford. What about Len other than height suggests he could develop into a starting caliber center over Williams or any of the aforementioned scrubs?
He hasn't improved since his rookie year. He still rushes shots. He is a 7 footer who plays like he's 6'7 against anybody else who is legitimately his size. He has bad hands and frequently gets the ball stolen on pick and rolls unless he's wide open. He's soft offensively. He gets abused on the defensive end against any legitimate offensive center.
I don't think he's horrible. I just think he is what he is. An average center who would be best suited as a 7th or 8th man. And in that role I would take Williams any day. The only thing that makes people around here pause about Len is he was the 5th pick in the draft. It's not his fault we took him there or that his draft year sucked. But he's not a 5th pick talent. And he is NOT worth 15 million dollars per year on a gamble that he will miraculously improve like he has yet to show since he got drafted.
Name the best centers in the NBA, then name the starting centers on contenders. They aren't the same guys. We don't need our starting center to be great, we just need him to rebound, defend well, and not clog up the offense.
The league needs heroes, villains... and clowns. -- Aztec Sunsfan
Al Jefferson is getting about 10.3 M a year. Omar Asik is getting 9.9 M. Koufos of the Kings is getting 8.1 M.
Jefferson can score at will, but plays no D. Asik is great D, no offense. Koufos showed some potential when he was with Denver, but has settled into journeyman mediocrity.
If Len wants a contract between 8M and 10M, management should take a long look. As a starting center, with Williams backing him, the Suns could do worse. Plus, there's the wild card of Bender.
O_Gardino wrote:Name the best centers in the NBA, then name the starting centers on contenders. They aren't the same guys. We don't need our starting center to be great, we just need him to rebound, defend well, and not clog up the offense.
Look up the salaries of the starting centers on the top teams in the league.
carey wrote:I'll only add that there was no obvious destination for Eric Bledsoe, we were essentially bidding against ourselves, and he still got 5/$70M. Idk.
ShelC wrote:I'm still partial to keeping him at 12-15mil. It sucks but that's the going rate (or seems to be) for a backup big. He's serviceable, he's our own, and he's still only 23 (24 in June). We know bigs take longer to develop and teams often give up on them too early. Plus, I still don't think we've done a great job of developing him and giving him consistent run. He needs to figure out who and what he is in the league.
I really don't see any value there. None. Who cares if he is our own? I agree the Suns haven't done a good job developing him, but that isn't going to change with a big, new contract. He really isn't making a difference on the court and he has plateaued to being just mediocre. The Suns have held on to him for too long, and signing him just to not lose him for nothing is the same mistake they made with Brandon Knight.
When I watch Len out there, I get the sense that he is that he's being misused. Weird minutes in the rotation, no real big man coach helping him, no defined role, not a ton of touches. He goes out there and he's just there. I think he can be a lot better than he has shown us so far. My guess would be that they are underplaying him to drive down his value so that he'll sign with us for a lower salary. Then they'll 180 and start giving him better minutes and a bigger role and suddenly, tada, he'll seem like a steal.
I think we should re-sign him for 3 years at 12-14 mil or whatever the going rate is for centers.
ShelC wrote:I'm still partial to keeping him at 12-15mil. It sucks but that's the going rate (or seems to be) for a backup big. He's serviceable, he's our own, and he's still only 23 (24 in June). We know bigs take longer to develop and teams often give up on them too early. Plus, I still don't think we've done a great job of developing him and giving him consistent run. He needs to figure out who and what he is in the league.
I really don't see any value there. None. Who cares if he is our own? I agree the Suns haven't done a good job developing him, but that isn't going to change with a big, new contract. He really isn't making a difference on the court and he has plateaued to being just mediocre. The Suns have held on to him for too long, and signing him just to not lose him for nothing is the same mistake they made with Brandon Knight.
I agree. He should have been traded this deadline. Don't think Knight is the same situation, though.
