Phx-Suns.Net

Cap wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:38 pm

AmareIsGod wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:00 pm

People forget that most big men / centers take time to develop and that he's barely 21 years of age.

That’s just something people say when a young center is disappointing.

For Christ's sake, is he truly disappointing?

AmareIsGod wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:52 pm

Cap wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:38 pm

AmareIsGod wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:23 pm

Superbone wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:14 pm

AmareIsGod wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:39 pm

Recent dominant bigs have very similar stats in their first year or two as Ayton. Embiid is a perfect example. And he missed his first 2 seasons with injuries. Ayton actually has been a better rebounder with similar or better block stats.

I would hope Ayton's stats are as good as Embiid's when he missed his first 2 seasons!

Lol. Sorry. Meant to say, Embiid's first 2 healthy seasons. Other than PPG.

Code: Select all

                                                                                                                                   
Rk          Player From   To  G GS   MP  FG  FGA  FG%  3P 3PA  3P%  2P  2PA  2P%  FT FTA  FT% ORB DRB  TRB AST STL BLK TOV  PF  PTS
1    Deandre Ayton 2019 2020 82 76 2523 8.5 14.6 .581 0.0 0.1 .000 8.5 14.5 .584 2.2 2.9 .748 3.8 8.5 12.3 2.1 0.9 1.2 2.1 3.5 19.2
2      Joel Embiid 2017 2018 94 94 2698 9.5 19.8 .478 1.4 4.2 .327 8.1 15.7 .518 7.3 9.5 .774 2.7 9.7 12.4 3.5 0.9 2.5 4.7 4.3 27.6

Provided by Basketball-Reference.com: View Original Table
Generated 1/17/2020.

OK, other than points, rebounds, assists, blocks, FT%, FTA (!!!), 3P%, 3P, PER, BPM, VORP, WS, WS/48, yada, yada, yada...

What part of similar or better can't you understand? In many statistical categories, they are similar. Does Embiid somehow dominate statistically across the board? I'm lost with your comparison. Also, are you in the camp of highly disappointed in Ayton thus far and think he should be further along? Likely doesn't have what it takes to be dominant? Lack of years in the league and age not being relevant for a big? Where are you in the Ayton camp Cap?

(Per minute) Boards and steals are similar. Embiid has far more points, almost twice the assists, more than twice the blocks, more than triple the free throw rate, a 3P contributor versus a zero in that category... Yeah, it’s pretty much across the board.

Drewsprocket wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:35 pm

AmareIsGod wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:53 am

You have to wonder after a game like last night, would you trade Oubre for an athletic PF, a solid backup PG or a dangerous 3 point shooter? I only ask because we were very balanced last night with our Big 3, Booker, Ayton and Rubio. I feel like when Oubre is out there, for all the great things he does, his ball dominance and inability to facilitate plays for his teammates may limit a player like Ayton.

CJ for Baynes and Oubre would get it done for PDX. Suns would have their sixth man and crunch time knock down threat. Probably worse on D though.

There’s no way CJ would go for the 6th man role for a struggling franchise like Phoenix. Starting him here doesn’t really fix any of our problems either.

Cap wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:02 pm

AmareIsGod wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:52 pm

Cap wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:38 pm

AmareIsGod wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:23 pm

Superbone wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:14 pm

I would hope Ayton's stats are as good as Embiid's when he missed his first 2 seasons!

Lol. Sorry. Meant to say, Embiid's first 2 healthy seasons. Other than PPG.

Code: Select all

                                                                                                                                   
Rk          Player From   To  G GS   MP  FG  FGA  FG%  3P 3PA  3P%  2P  2PA  2P%  FT FTA  FT% ORB DRB  TRB AST STL BLK TOV  PF  PTS
1    Deandre Ayton 2019 2020 82 76 2523 8.5 14.6 .581 0.0 0.1 .000 8.5 14.5 .584 2.2 2.9 .748 3.8 8.5 12.3 2.1 0.9 1.2 2.1 3.5 19.2
2      Joel Embiid 2017 2018 94 94 2698 9.5 19.8 .478 1.4 4.2 .327 8.1 15.7 .518 7.3 9.5 .774 2.7 9.7 12.4 3.5 0.9 2.5 4.7 4.3 27.6

Provided by Basketball-Reference.com: View Original Table
Generated 1/17/2020.

OK, other than points, rebounds, assists, blocks, FT%, FTA (!!!), 3P%, 3P, PER, BPM, VORP, WS, WS/48, yada, yada, yada...

What part of similar or better can't you understand? In many statistical categories, they are similar. Does Embiid somehow dominate statistically across the board? I'm lost with your comparison. Also, are you in the camp of highly disappointed in Ayton thus far and think he should be further along? Likely doesn't have what it takes to be dominant? Lack of years in the league and age not being relevant for a big? Where are you in the Ayton camp Cap?

(Per minute) Boards and steals are similar. Embiid has far more points, almost twice the assists, more than twice the blocks, more than triple the free throw rate, a 3P contributor versus a zero in that category... Yeah, it’s pretty much across the board.

Thanks Cap.

At least we've graduated to criticizing Ayton rather than talking about Luka all day.

We are pretty good at rotating who we complain about.

The thing is, the guy we really should have gotten isn't Luka. It's Ja Morant. We should have gotten that #2 (or even #1) pick this past draft, and OGW / Sarver curse screwed us again. Honestly I'm not all that upset seeing Luka be so dominant already. I'm more upset seeing that Ja Morant is a phenom and every bit as good as I hoped he'd be, and that we missed out on him.

I knew we had this game won as soon as Wally Szczerbiak said at half time on the Knicks broadcast that the Knicks would win the game.

Drewsprocket wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:25 pm

Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:02 pm

Drewsprocket wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:57 pm

Lol. My Portland friends proposed that to me when the Suns were rolling out the gate. I said no. I see you’re Oregonian. Blazers are desperate for a 3 and D and bench guy.

I assume the front office in Portland knows that Kelly Oubre is not a 3 and D guy.

I know what you mean... But Kelly is making pretty much 35% of his threes on five attempts, 1.5 steals, .8 blocks, and his Defense has literally won at least one game in the 4 th quarter with his team on his back. So let’s just give him a pass shall we. Geez man, go hug your kids tonight or take your nephew out and buy him an ice cream. Suns fans are too harsh. Oubre isn’t all that consistent but when he’s locked in he can stop anyone and hit from deep as good as any wing.

You're taking this the wrong way. I'm not saying that to diminish Oubre, only the people who misunderstand who he is as a player. He will spot up, but his tendency is to slash off ball and try to beat his man off the dribble. He's at his best on offense when he's allowed to play to his strengths. As for the "D" part, he can't defend bigger wings well, so that also is a mischaracterization of his skill set.

I like Oubre just fine. He's miscast by the Suns mostly out of necessity, but that's on the GM.

Cap wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:38 pm

AmareIsGod wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:00 pm

People forget that most big men / centers take time to develop and that he's barely 21 years of age.

That’s just something people say when a young center is disappointing.

No. It's not. It's the truth. I'm far from disappointed in Ayton's progress and I have been saying that for quite awhile.

Was that an attempt at sarcasm?

Can't we play nice, boys?

The point is that Ayton can do this every night once he gets his head on straight. At that point, he's an MVP candidate every year for a decade.

But he is still learning and the question is whether the light bulb will click. Let's see. Really no other way to tell except to see how he does the next few games.

My prediction: think of 16 pts 11 rebounds 2 blocks with solid defense (in 30 mpg, not 36 or 40 as is typical) as a baseline with a big game like this every few games. If the aggressive towards the basket thing clicks, 20-12-2. But let's see.

Just to point out how misleading his per game numbers are -- per 36 minutes he is averaging 20 mpg, 14 rpg, 2 apg, and 2 bpg with solid defense. This IS what you would expect from a second year center on the way to being dominant. And I expect improvement across the board as he is only 10 games in this season with a lot of chaos personally and team wise.

Yes, color me disappointed.

Honestly, I don't think anyone has complained about Ayton's stats, except for his free throw attempts. The complaints have been about the way he plays.

Amare in his rookie season has been more impressive than Ayton has been, and Ayton's stats dwarf Amare's.

INFORMER wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:00 pm

Honestly, I don't think anyone has complained about Ayton's stats, except for his free throw attempts. The complaints have been about the way he plays.

Amare in his rookie season has been more impressive than Ayton has been, and Ayton's stats dwarf Amare's.

I agree, aggression changes the complexion of games. The real question to me is what Ayton is vs. what he can become.

I like Ayton...come on...he had no support at PG until this year...and we had the f up start between the suspension and the ankle injury. His performance yesterday to me left me with some hope...

VT

I think he truly is too nice. He needs to learn how to play mad. Amare played like he was pissed off. Ayton even dunks nicely. I remember a game last year where he got pissed off at something or someone and played with that fire for a brief moment in time.

If I'm being honest, I understand where Cap, Indy, Informer and others are coming from. Ayton is so physically gifted and dominant that last night shouldn't be a "OMG did you see that?! I told you he's not a bust" type of event. They should be proof that he's as talented and dominant as any big man in the league. And that's the frustration. When he figures out that he's dominant and plays aggressive, there's no stopping him. I hope he figures out how to channel that effort consistently otherwise I, again, understand the frustration. He could be one of the greats. But it all comes down to him realizing and wanting that.

It's almost like watching someone with millions of dollars blow it all and go into poverty.

Nodack wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 17, 2020 10:32 pm

I think he truly is too nice. He needs to learn how to play mad. Amare played like he was pissed off. Ayton even dunks nicely. I remember a game last year where he got pissed off at something or someone and played with that fire for a brief moment in time.

This

Okay actually I take it back, Luka is really good.

Mori Chu wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:04 pm

Okay actually I take it back, Luka is really good.

Dammit Mori! We were just starting to become complacent with Ayton! Why do you do this?