So we could all see that the mysterious head injury that Warren had clearly affected him, but did Tucker coming back and playing also play a part in it? Because, Tucker was on the bench at the beginning of the year. Did Tucker crack him over the head in the parking garage after practice? jk about the last question
"When we all think alike, nobody is thinking" - Walter Lippmann "Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them." ~ Frederick Douglass
Another question, how much did Len's role change in the offense affect him this year? This year he was setting a pick at the top of the key in the P&R to start the offense. In the past under Horny, IIRC didn't he get the ball at the high post in a lot of the plays to start the offense?
"When we all think alike, nobody is thinking" - Walter Lippmann "Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them." ~ Frederick Douglass
I feel like Len doesn't have a good core. He's too long and wiry. Even though the numbers say that he's 250, he sure doesn't look like it. In fact he reminds me of those air tube stick-men decorations that some stores would have in front of their doors, with air blowing from the bottom. His legs are too long and his center of gravity is too high, and since his core strength isn't there he cannot effectively back anyone down. I just don't ever see him as a back to the basket type player. If he ever gets more confidence in that 15-17 footer and gets defenders to respect that then there's more of a pick and pop / pump fake and drive game in him. He's not going to be a low post kinda threat.
I'm all for bringing him back at around 10 m per, and I think 15 is too high. Maybe somewhere in between lies the true number.
His legs are too long and his center of gravity is too high
This has always been his biggest issue. He doesn't have a low center of gravity, plays too upright, doesn't "sit" in the post. But again, I think it's been our lack of development with him that's been our failure. Sitting in the post is a teachable thing. I've never thought you can teach rebounding, hustle, shotblocking. Those things are just instinctive. A guy can certainly improve some in those areas, but I doubt we'll turn Len into Hassan Whiteside or Rudy Gobert with defensive drills in the offseason. Still, given the cap and new salaries I think a 10-12mil a year deal over 3 years is fair. Wouldn't give him more money or more years than that. He's just 23 years old, is 7-1 and pretty athletic and can be a serviceable backup with room to improve.
Len is worth keeping for 2-3 more years at around 10-12 mil a year. That is not a crazy salary, and if he doesn't pan out, we aren't stuck with him for too long. In today's NBA, 10 million dollars is honestly not a very large salary at all. Mostly you have to cut the numbers in half to get the right feel for him. Would you sign him for $6-7 mil? If so, you should be content if he gets a contract for 11-13 mil. That's just how the money is now.
In2ition wrote:So we could all see that the mysterious head injury that Warren had clearly affected him, but did Tucker coming back and playing also play a part in it? Because, Tucker was on the bench at the beginning of the year. Did Tucker crack him over the head in the parking garage after practice? jk about the last question
I 100% think Tucker was an issue. At the beginning of the year, Warren would get going when we went small and he got time playing PF, then he would keep rolling well if the floor was spread and there was room for him to work in that 12ft range he likes. With Tucker getting minutes as our small ball 4, that took away a lot of Warren's easy buckets and clogged the lane because Tucker spent so much time under the hoop.
The league needs heroes, villains... and clowns. -- Aztec Sunsfan
In2ition wrote:Another question, how much did Len's role change in the offense affect him this year? This year he was setting a pick at the top of the key in the P&R to start the offense. In the past under Horny, IIRC didn't he get the ball at the high post in a lot of the plays to start the offense?
I would love to see some real basketball analysis of this.
IMO, Len was getting a lot of isolations in the high post to start the year (and at the end of last season), but we went away from them because an isolation for Len is almost always a missed shot or turnover. IIRC, under Horny, Len would get the ball, but players would move and screen and Len would look to pass to a shooter coming off a screen.
But, yeah. I would love to see a breakdown from someone smarter than me.
The league needs heroes, villains... and clowns. -- Aztec Sunsfan
His legs are too long and his center of gravity is too high
This has always been his biggest issue. He doesn't have a low center of gravity, plays too upright, doesn't "sit" in the post. But again, I think it's been our lack of development with him that's been our failure. Sitting in the post is a teachable thing. I've never thought you can teach rebounding, hustle, shotblocking. Those things are just instinctive. A guy can certainly improve some in those areas, but I doubt we'll turn Len into Hassan Whiteside or Rudy Gobert with defensive drills in the offseason. Still, given the cap and new salaries I think a 10-12mil a year deal over 3 years is fair. Wouldn't give him more money or more years than that. He's just 23 years old, is 7-1 and pretty athletic and can be a serviceable backup with room to improve.
I agree about his legs being an issue. He also seems to not have the leg strength to jump after grabbing a rebound. It's like he has to have a running start to jump. I agree that we haven't done a great job developing Len, which is why I don't regret missing on Gobert in that draft. He wouldn't be this good for us.
But to play devil's advocate, I think Len is almost as good as Whiteside and Gobert, statistically. Obv, he doesn't have the actual impact on the game that they have. But he is 3rd in the NBA in block% and 15 in the NBA in rebound%. Seems like a guy like that could ad some value. IDK. Howard is pretty good statistically, too.
The league needs heroes, villains... and clowns. -- Aztec Sunsfan
My problem with signing Len is not only how poorly I think he has played but the fact that he will be taking playing time from other players.
If we keep Chandler, which I expect we will, he should be our starting center. I would much rather see us trying to develop Bender into a small ball 5 with Chriss or Warren at the 4 than watching Len wander around in a daze all the time he is on the court. I also have to believe Williams has earned a contract with us next year. How much is that going to cost? He has earned minutes ahead of Len, IMO. If that is the case. How many minutes are you going to give to Len and how much are you willing to pay. That is the question, IMO.
It probably all will come down to where we actually end up in the draft. In some of the mocks I have seen that there are some potential big guys available in the 2nd round. Could we draft someone with similar talents to Len in the 2nd round?
Obviously this is a very crucial off season for us and it will be interesting to see how McDonough handles it. We do not need to sign any more boat anchors like Knight to contracts for $15 Mil per year. I am afraid that is just what a contract to Len will end up being.
This BUD'S for us! - Play fast Play well - Go Suns!
Indy wrote:As much as I love Alan's energy and heart, he doesn't defend the paint like Len at all.
100% agree. Being limited athletically and only 6'8" makes him a bit of a liability on the defensive side of the ball at the center position. I love his story, his heart, hustle and intangibles. I would love to find a physically dominating player who intimidates defensively, has great hands and is fearless(might be a pipe dream, and I fully acknowledge that).
"When we all think alike, nobody is thinking" - Walter Lippmann "Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them." ~ Frederick Douglass
Indy wrote:As much as I love Alan's energy and heart, he doesn't defend the paint like Len at all.
100% agree. Being limited athletically and only 6'8" makes him a bit of a liability on the defensive side of the ball at the center position. I love his story, his heart, hustle and intangibles. I would love to find a physically dominating player who intimidates defensively, has great hands and is fearless(might be a pipe dream, and I fully acknowledge that).
And that coming from a guy that is leaning towards saying don't bother to re-sign him at all above the QO. I really like having Tyson on the team for what he gives the young guys, being a hard worker, and a guy that played a huge role in his team wining a ring. But he isn't an intimidating presence on the defensive end either. If we do let Len walk, our plan can't be to get through the season with either Tyson or Alan starting, or either of them getting the majority of minutes at 5.
And I know there is some clamoring for Dragan/Chriss as our 4/5 combo, but unless we are good to be 10th-12th place in the West next year, that won't work yet.
JustWinBaby wrote:My problem with signing Len is not only how poorly I think he has played but the fact that he will be taking playing time from other players.
If we keep Chandler, which I expect we will, he should be our starting center. I would much rather see us trying to develop Bender into a small ball 5 with Chriss or Warren at the 4 than watching Len wander around in a daze all the time he is on the court. I also have to believe Williams has earned a contract with us next year. How much is that going to cost? He has earned minutes ahead of Len, IMO. If that is the case. How many minutes are you going to give to Len and how much are you willing to pay. That is the question, IMO.
It probably all will come down to where we actually end up in the draft. In some of the mocks I have seen that there are some potential big guys available in the 2nd round. Could we draft someone with similar talents to Len in the 2nd round?
Obviously this is a very crucial off season for us and it will be interesting to see how McDonough handles it. We do not need to sign any more boat anchors like Knight to contracts for $15 Mil per year. I am afraid that is just what a contract to Len will end up being.
Only in todays NBA would a 7'1" guy be labeled a small ball center. If (and it's a big if) Bender can add a solid 30lbs we could have a Marc Gasol type high post C. Hoping he destroys the weight room over the summer.
Indy wrote:As much as I love Alan's energy and heart, he doesn't defend the paint like Len at all.
100% agree. Being limited athletically and only 6'8" makes him a bit of a liability on the defensive side of the ball at the center position. I love his story, his heart, hustle and intangibles. I would love to find a physically dominating player who intimidates defensively, has great hands and is fearless(might be a pipe dream, and I fully acknowledge that).
And that coming from a guy that is leaning towards saying don't bother to re-sign him at all above the QO. I really like having Tyson on the team for what he gives the young guys, being a hard worker, and a guy that played a huge role in his team wining a ring. But he isn't an intimidating presence on the defensive end either. If we do let Len walk, our plan can't be to get through the season with either Tyson or Alan starting, or either of them getting the majority of minutes at 5.
And I know there is some clamoring for Dragan/Chriss as our 4/5 combo, but unless we are good to be 10th-12th place in the West next year, that won't work yet.
I'm on the same page as you on this Indy, as I'm also leaning to just offering the QO to Len. I also agree that Bender/Chriss 4/5 combo is way too early and will relegate the Suns to another lottery trip.
"When we all think alike, nobody is thinking" - Walter Lippmann "Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them." ~ Frederick Douglass
Indy wrote:As much as I love Alan's energy and heart, he doesn't defend the paint like Len at all.
100% agree. Being limited athletically and only 6'8" makes him a bit of a liability on the defensive side of the ball at the center position. I love his story, his heart, hustle and intangibles. I would love to find a physically dominating player who intimidates defensively, has great hands and is fearless(might be a pipe dream, and I fully acknowledge that).
And that coming from a guy that is leaning towards saying don't bother to re-sign him at all above the QO. I really like having Tyson on the team for what he gives the young guys, being a hard worker, and a guy that played a huge role in his team wining a ring. But he isn't an intimidating presence on the defensive end either. If we do let Len walk, our plan can't be to get through the season with either Tyson or Alan starting, or either of them getting the majority of minutes at 5.
And I know there is some clamoring for Dragan/Chriss as our 4/5 combo, but unless we are good to be 10th-12th place in the West next year, that won't work yet.
I'm on the same page as you on this Indy, as I'm also leaning to just offering the QO to Len. I also agree that Bender/Chriss 4/5 combo is way too early and will relegate the Suns to another lottery trip.
Personally, I am not opposed to this if we are committed to playing Bender as much as we did Chriss this year, and letting him learn. Might be best for his overall development, and ours.
Indy wrote:As much as I love Alan's energy and heart, he doesn't defend the paint like Len at all.
100% agree. Being limited athletically and only 6'8" makes him a bit of a liability on the defensive side of the ball at the center position. I love his story, his heart, hustle and intangibles. I would love to find a physically dominating player who intimidates defensively, has great hands and is fearless(might be a pipe dream, and I fully acknowledge that).
And that coming from a guy that is leaning towards saying don't bother to re-sign him at all above the QO. I really like having Tyson on the team for what he gives the young guys, being a hard worker, and a guy that played a huge role in his team wining a ring. But he isn't an intimidating presence on the defensive end either. If we do let Len walk, our plan can't be to get through the season with either Tyson or Alan starting, or either of them getting the majority of minutes at 5.
And I know there is some clamoring for Dragan/Chriss as our 4/5 combo, but unless we are good to be 10th-12th place in the West next year, that won't work yet.
The support of Len over Williams really makes no sense for next year. Even prior to going into full tank mode Len could not earn more court time minutes than Williams from our coach. This is without Chandler around and experimenting with the Dragan/Chriss combo.
It is really time to move on from Len. Some think that we should have waited for Robin freaking Lopez to develop. Does anyone want him back on our roster. He sucked and still sucks. That is what I think we have in Alex Len. I would rather watch Chandler, Williams and Bender takes turns at center with the possibility of picking up another option in the 2nd round or free agency then being stuck with another bad contract. Our defense might be slightly better with Len on the court but we are playing 4 against 5 on the offensive end.
This BUD'S for us! - Play fast Play well - Go Suns!
I am on board with keeping Len on a affordable salary. I think we need to pick up a big man coach to assist. I don't think that Watson and staff are going to make Len better. Len needs to learn to play in traffic on offense or he is not going to fit with most of our lineups. Len is not shown the ability to create space. Len has shown that when he has space and confidence he can be effective. Defensively I think that our entire team needs to learn how to play man defense better. Specifically playing good team man defense like a paper bag. Recovering to the gaps not the man good ball pressure and moving on the start of the pass not watching ball flight. If we played good team man defense then Len's shot blocking would have more impact because the game would slow down a bit for him. We have gotten better at boxing out but it seems like we have always had problems with that. Len does not have a nose for the ball if he had a nose for the ball like either Warren or Williams it would make up a great deal for his high center of gravity. I don't think you can teach that so you have to make up for it by boxing out as a team.
Indy wrote:As much as I love Alan's energy and heart, he doesn't defend the paint like Len at all.
100% agree. Being limited athletically and only 6'8" makes him a bit of a liability on the defensive side of the ball at the center position. I love his story, his heart, hustle and intangibles. I would love to find a physically dominating player who intimidates defensively, has great hands and is fearless(might be a pipe dream, and I fully acknowledge that).
And that coming from a guy that is leaning towards saying don't bother to re-sign him at all above the QO. I really like having Tyson on the team for what he gives the young guys, being a hard worker, and a guy that played a huge role in his team wining a ring. But he isn't an intimidating presence on the defensive end either. If we do let Len walk, our plan can't be to get through the season with either Tyson or Alan starting, or either of them getting the majority of minutes at 5.
And I know there is some clamoring for Dragan/Chriss as our 4/5 combo, but unless we are good to be 10th-12th place in the West next year, that won't work yet.
The support of Len over Williams really makes no sense for next year. Even prior to going into full tank mode Len could not earn more court time minutes than Williams from our coach. This is without Chandler around and experimenting with the Dragan/Chriss combo.
It is really time to move on from Len. Some think that we should have waited for Robin freaking Lopez to develop. Does anyone want him back on our roster. He sucked and still sucks. That is what I think we have in Alex Len. I would rather watch Chandler, Williams and Bender takes turns at center with the possibility of picking up another option in the 2nd round or free agency then being stuck with another bad contract. Our defense might be slightly better with Len on the court but we are playing 4 against 5 on the offensive end.
I'm not supporting Len over Williams, other than Len is a better defender. I think we are actually pretty close in how we see this. Williams was better in so many categories this year, and I have a lot of skepticism over thinking Len will EVER really get it. I just don't see Williams as a long term solution at the center spot. I like him though.
"When we all think alike, nobody is thinking" - Walter Lippmann "Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them." ~ Frederick Douglass
