All Things Ayton

[JeremyG]

One of these players is Ayton and one is an All-Star center:

Code: Select all

FG%   Dist.      % of FGA by Distance		                 FG% by Distance	      	                Dunks		
 	         2P	0-3	3-10	10-16	16-3P   3P	 2P	0-3	3-10	10-16	16-3P	3P	 %FGA	#
.540	7.4	.989	.298	.380	.265	.047	.011	 .545	.714	.478	.498	.288	.083	.136	140
.589	7.7	.973	.313	.352	.223	.085	.027	 .597	.806	.532	.455	.467	.292	.131	110

[Kryptonic]

I said I wouldn't, but here I am.

My name is Flagrant Fowl and I have a problem.

Bahahahaha…. Thanks for the chuckle.

Jeremyg…. You’re 100% right that haters over blow things. As much as you complain that the haters make him feel worse than what he is; you do the same but in over blowing his stats. He is what he is…. I’m over hating him and just moved on to accept him for what he is and just will appreciate his 18/8 he’ll give us. I’m just a passionate suns fan and want that title. Sorry if my passion made me a hater.

[JeremyG]

I said I wouldn't, but here I am.

My name is Flagrant Fowl and I have a problem.

Bahahahaha…. Thanks for the chuckle.

Jeremyg…. You’re 100% right that haters over blow things. As much as you complain that the haters make him feel worse than what he is; you do the same but in over blowing his stats. He is what he is…. I’m over hating him and just moved on to accept him for what he is and just will appreciate his 18/8 he’ll give us. I’m just a passionate suns fan and want that title. Sorry if my passion made me a hater.

8? See, you did it again.

[Kryptonic]

I said I wouldn't, but here I am.

My name is Flagrant Fowl and I have a problem.

Bahahahaha…. Thanks for the chuckle.

Jeremyg…. You’re 100% right that haters over blow things. As much as you complain that the haters make him feel worse than what he is; you do the same but in over blowing his stats. He is what he is…. I’m over hating him and just moved on to accept him for what he is and just will appreciate his 18/8 he’ll give us. I’m just a passionate suns fan and want that title. Sorry if my passion made me a hater.

8? See, you did it again.

My bad

[JeremyG]

Is Deandre Ayton overpaid for what he produces at the center position?

Ayton is the 8th highest paid center in the NBA (counting Sabonis' contract starting a year from now).

Among all centers, Ayton ranked 8th last season in points per game, 10th in rebounds per game, and 8th in combined points+rebounds per game.

So his production is almost exactly in line with his salary.

[Shabazz]

Is Deandre Ayton overpaid for what he produces at the center position?

Ayton is the 8th highest paid center in the NBA (counting Sabonis' contract starting a year from now).

Among all centers, Ayton ranked 8th last season in points per game, 10th in rebounds per game, and 8th in combined points+rebounds per game.

So his production is almost exactly in line with his salary.

Now do defensive stats.

It’s never been about dunking for me. It’s about mindset and aggression. The dunking thing is a symptom, not the disease.

[specialsauce]

Is Deandre Ayton overpaid for what he produces at the center position?

Ayton is the 8th highest paid center in the NBA (counting Sabonis' contract starting a year from now).

Among all centers, Ayton ranked 8th last season in points per game, 10th in rebounds per game, and 8th in combined points+rebounds per game.

So his production is almost exactly in line with his salary.

Post the top 10 please

[SunsRIt]

The problem for me is when he should have dunked it and looks silly when he misses the layup. And that happened many times this season. We’ve all seen that happen and they stand out more than the many dunks. If he would go with force and power a majority of the time we wouldn’t be having theis conversation and he would be averaging at least 22 and 10. Not a big difference in scoring, but some, and the eye test would be better.

[Superbone]

The problem for me is when he should have dunked it and looks silly when he misses the layup. And that happened many times this season. We’ve all seen that happen and they stand out more than the many dunks. If he would go with force and power a majority of the time we wouldn’t be having theis conversation and he would be averaging at least 22 and 10. Not a big difference in scoring, but some, and the eye test would be better.

THIS! Reading above I was thinking it's too bad there is not a stat for "should have been a dunk attempt but attempted to lay it in instead." Those infuriate me. (Well, mostly the misses.) Especially because we KNOW he can throw it down with force. He's just a gentle giant that shies away from demonstrative dunks.

[Shabazz]

The problem for me is when he should have dunked it and looks silly when he misses the layup. And that happened many times this season. We’ve all seen that happen and they stand out more than the many dunks. If he would go with force and power a majority of the time we wouldn’t be having theis conversation and he would be averaging at least 22 and 10. Not a big difference in scoring, but some, and the eye test would be better.

THIS! Reading above I was thinking it's too bad there is not a stat for "should have been a dunk attempt but attempted to lay it in instead." Those infuriate me. (Well, mostly the misses.) Especially because we KNOW he can throw it down with force. He's just a gentle giant that shies away from demonstrative dunks.

I'd take layups all day long if he had an attacking mindset and would draw the occasional foul against the opposing starting center or (gasp!) actually get them in foul trouble.

[Superbone]

The problem for me is when he should have dunked it and looks silly when he misses the layup. And that happened many times this season. We’ve all seen that happen and they stand out more than the many dunks. If he would go with force and power a majority of the time we wouldn’t be having theis conversation and he would be averaging at least 22 and 10. Not a big difference in scoring, but some, and the eye test would be better.

THIS! Reading above I was thinking it's too bad there is not a stat for "should have been a dunk attempt but attempted to lay it in instead." Those infuriate me. (Well, mostly the misses.) Especially because we KNOW he can throw it down with force. He's just a gentle giant that shies away from demonstrative dunks.

I'd take layups all day long if he had an attacking mindset and would draw the occasional foul against the opposing starting center or (gasp!) actually get them in foul trouble.

If he had an attacking mindset and played through contact, he would be dunking the ball. Not laying it in. What you said doesn't jive.

[JeremyG]

Is Deandre Ayton overpaid for what he produces at the center position?

Ayton is the 8th highest paid center in the NBA (counting Sabonis' contract starting a year from now).

Among all centers, Ayton ranked 8th last season in points per game, 10th in rebounds per game, and 8th in combined points+rebounds per game.

So his production is almost exactly in line with his salary.

Post the top 10 please

Top 10 by salary?

1. Nikola Jokic
2. Joel Embiid
3. Rudy Gobert
4. Anthony Davis
5. Domantas Sabonis (starting next year)
6. Kristaps Porzingis
7. Bam Adebayo
8. Deandre Ayton
9. Jaren Jackson Jr
10. Brook Lopez

[Mori Chu]

It's hard to show what's bad about Ayton with a purely stats-driven approach. Sure, if he were playing better he'd probably have a few more ppg or rpg, but his ppg/rpg aren't really that bad, and his FG% is especially impressive. So on paper he looks pretty decent as an NBA starting center, at least based on the topline mainstream NBA player stats.

But if you watch the guy play, you see what's wrong pretty quickly. He gives inconsistent effort which harms his play and the team in a multitude of ways. He often doesn't get back on defense, letting the other team score. He has gotten really bad at boxing out, and he tries to get rebounds by just jumping and reaching, which often leads to him missing the rebound or committing silly loose ball fouls. He visibly disengages when he hasn't gotten a touch on offense for a few possessions. He has a noticeable aversion to contact, so he doesn't go up strong many times that he should. He's a pretty good individual and help defender when he wants to be, but he does tend to pick up ticky-tack fouls, and then he responds to this by laying way off on defense for the rest of the game so he doesn't have to go to the bench. When he cuts to the basket, he doesn't always look for the entry pass, and he bobbles a lot of balls off his spaghetti hands leading to turnovers.

Taken together, it's a disappointing and frustrating mix of multiple big flaws: inconsistent effort, clumsiness, unwillingness to be aggressive and seek out contact, and a lack of bbiq to put himself in the best position to succeed.

And I don't like microanalyzing his comments to media, but he often says things that make it sound like he thinks he's already good enough as an NBA player, that he doesn't need to put in work to improve, that his primary concern as a player is to get large contracts and money. This mixed with a "chill" and "relaxed" attitude gives off an impression of a player who is far too contented with himself and not willing enough to work to improve in these urgently needed ways.

He still does contribute a lot to the team, and he is uniquely gifted at guarding some of the league's best big men 1:1, such as Anthony Davis and Jokic. So I still do value having him. But these are pretty deeply rooted flaws for a max-contract player to have. I think on balance it's about finite asset management to me; at this point I'd rather have a different and also-flawed center who makes 1/2 what Ayton makes. Then I would be willing to overlook the player's flaws more and we'd use the salary difference to get more guys to strengthen the team.

[specialsauce]

Is Deandre Ayton overpaid for what he produces at the center position?

Ayton is the 8th highest paid center in the NBA (counting Sabonis' contract starting a year from now).

Among all centers, Ayton ranked 8th last season in points per game, 10th in rebounds per game, and 8th in combined points+rebounds per game.

So his production is almost exactly in line with his salary.

Post the top 10 please

Top 10 by salary?

1. Nikola Jokic
2. Joel Embiid
3. Rudy Gobert
4. Anthony Davis
5. Domantas Sabonis (starting next year)
6. Kristaps Porzingis
7. Bam Adebayo
8. Deandre Ayton
9. Jaren Jackson Jr
10. Brook Lopez

Sorry, thanks but I meant in those stats categories if you can

[JeremyG]

Is Deandre Ayton overpaid for what he produces at the center position?

Ayton is the 8th highest paid center in the NBA (counting Sabonis' contract starting a year from now).

Among all centers, Ayton ranked 8th last season in points per game, 10th in rebounds per game, and 8th in combined points+rebounds per game.

So his production is almost exactly in line with his salary.

Post the top 10 please

Top 10 by salary?

1. Nikola Jokic
2. Joel Embiid
3. Rudy Gobert
4. Anthony Davis
5. Domantas Sabonis (starting next year)
6. Kristaps Porzingis
7. Bam Adebayo
8. Deandre Ayton
9. Jaren Jackson Jr
10. Brook Lopez

Sorry, thanks but I meant in those stats categories if you can

No worries, I got you! These top ten lists are of all players BBRef lists as centers for 2022-23.

PPG:

1. Embiid: 33.1
2. Davis: 25.9
3. Jokic: 24.5
4. Porzingis: 23.2
5. Adebayo: 20.4
6. Sabonis: 19.1
7. Jackson: 18.6
8. Ayton: 18.0
9. Turner: 18.0
10. Vucevic: 17.6


RPG:

1. Davis: 12.5
2. Sabonis: 12.3
3. Jokic: 11.8
4. Gobert: 11.6
5. Adams: 11.5
6. Vucevic: 11.0
7. Capela: 11.0
8. Embiid: 10.2
9. Valanciunas: 10.2
10. Ayton: 10.0


PPG+RPG:

1. Embiid: 43.3
2. Davis: 38.4
3. Jokic: 36.3
4. Porzingis: 31.6
5. Sabonis: 31.4
6. Adebayo: 29.6
7. Vucevic: 28.6
8. Ayton: 28.0
9. Jackson: 25.4
10. Gobert: 25.0

The only 6 players who are on both the top ten lists for PPG and RPG are: Embiid, Davis, Jokic, Sabonis, Ayton, and Vucevic.

[ShadowHawke]

What is Deandre's assist to turnover ratio?

[Split T]

1.7 assists and 1.8 turnovers last year

[specialsauce]

Is Deandre Ayton overpaid for what he produces at the center position?

Ayton is the 8th highest paid center in the NBA (counting Sabonis' contract starting a year from now).

Among all centers, Ayton ranked 8th last season in points per game, 10th in rebounds per game, and 8th in combined points+rebounds per game.

So his production is almost exactly in line with his salary.

Post the top 10 please

Top 10 by salary?

1. Nikola Jokic
2. Joel Embiid
3. Rudy Gobert
4. Anthony Davis
5. Domantas Sabonis (starting next year)
6. Kristaps Porzingis
7. Bam Adebayo
8. Deandre Ayton
9. Jaren Jackson Jr
10. Brook Lopez

Sorry, thanks but I meant in those stats categories if you can

No worries, I got you! These top ten lists are of all players BBRef lists as centers for 2022-23.

PPG:

1. Embiid: 33.1
2. Davis: 25.9
3. Jokic: 24.5
4. Porzingis: 23.2
5. Adebayo: 20.4
6. Sabonis: 19.1
7. Jackson: 18.6
8. Ayton: 18.0
9. Turner: 18.0
10. Vucevic: 17.6


RPG:

1. Davis: 12.5
2. Sabonis: 12.3
3. Jokic: 11.8
4. Gobert: 11.6
5. Adams: 11.5
6. Vucevic: 11.0
7. Capela: 11.0
8. Embiid: 10.2
9. Valanciunas: 10.2
10. Ayton: 10.0


PPG+RPG:

1. Embiid: 43.3
2. Davis: 38.4
3. Jokic: 36.3
4. Porzingis: 31.6
5. Sabonis: 31.4
6. Adebayo: 29.6
7. Vucevic: 28.6
8. Ayton: 28.0
9. Jackson: 25.4
10. Gobert: 25.0

The only 6 players who are on both the top ten lists for PPG and RPG are: Embiid, Davis, Jokic, Sabonis, Ayton, and Vucevic.

And the only 3 I’d pay at their current salary are the top 3 in the final category: Embiid, Davis and Jokic. And I wouldn’t pay Davis because he’s so unreliable. So really just Embiid and Jokic. All the rest are a colossal mistake of a contract

[ShadowHawke]

How does that compare with the other top ten centers?

[Split T]

I think what it comes down to with Ayton is that he has a lot of pretty high level skills, but there always seems to be a very important skill he lacks.

Does he have great touch around the basket? Yes he does, but he’s also contact averse and prefers hooks, floaters, and fadeaways over aggressive rim attacks.

Does he also have good touch from midrange? Yes he does, but he’s not a threat to attack off the dribble here, so teams will live with Ayton mid range shots(Great if he makes a high level of them, but it doesn’t bend the defense at all and Ayton isn’t a high level passer).

Side note that blends the two above, he’s a great play finisher when he gets the ball in his spots, but he doesn’t have the ability to get to his spots with the ball. He needs someone to pass it to him once he’s there.

He’s got elite physical skills(moving his feet, wingspan, speed in transition, size/strength). But he often doesn’t box out, jogs in transition, doesn’t contest, or doesn’t get back into the play after 1 strong effort.

He’s just this weird combination of elite skills without the complimentary attributes/skills that turn him into a max level guy. He needs to find some complimentary attributes.

1. Aggression
2. Hustle/motor
3. Dribbling

He just adds 1 or 2 of those and we’re good. I’d take hustle/motor first, then aggression, then dribbling.