Re: Suns 2017 Free Agency
Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 12:53 am
I would not give him one penny more than Big Sauce. And I'd prefer to keep Big Sauce over Len. Len sucks
I don't see it. He grabbed 1 rebound every 3.06 min, same rebound rate as last year. He scored a point every 2.5 minutes. Same scoring rate. He fouled more in less minutes. He turned it over at a slightly better rate which I guess is the one thing he actually improved on (once every 15 min instead of once every 12 minutes.) His overall FG% improved slightly but he's not even at 50%, which for a 7' 1" C is not good. I can live with Len getting a moderate contract but you should only pay for his production and not his potential right now because he didn't make the year 3 leap after year 4 so he's 2 years behind where he should be right now.Marty wrote:
http://www.espn.com/nba/player/stats/_/ ... 7/alex-len
His stats regressed slightly last year, but that's partly because we signed Chandler to steal his minutes. He went down by 3 minutes per game from 23.3 to 20.3. That's a lot. If we had actually given him a starting/major role, his numbers would have gone up.
Strongly disagree. Williams was 8th in the NBA in defensive rebounding rate, 9th in offensive rebounding rate, and 6th in overall rebounding rate. The guy is an ELITE rebounder. He's also ranked 22nd among power forwards in Defensive Real Plus Minus, and had the second highest player efficiency rating on the team, behind only Bledsoe (19.6 to 20.6). His net RPM was 4th highest on the team (behind Bled, Chandler, and Dudley). He had an Offensive Rating of 113 (very good) according to basketball reference.ShelC wrote:Agreed on both Len and Williams (and Lopez). The thing with Lopez is that our expectations were probably skewed because we drafted him and wanted him to be better, not unlike Len. And Williams...yea, guys like him can be found just about every year and rarely do 6-9 rebounding centers ever really find longevity in the league, much less consistent minutes on a winning team.
I believe October 31st is the deadline for RFAs and also for team options to be exercised on any contracts.bajanguy008 wrote:Is there a date we have to or should finalize Len and Sauce contracts by ?
His rebound rate was 29th in the league. Ahead of such players as Anthony Davis, Nurkic, and Embiid. He improved his offensive efficiency to over 50% shooting which is great for him. He fouled at a slightly higher rate but that's because he had more fouls per minute to burn. He is not developing as fast as we would have liked but he looks like he is going to be a productive NBA player.carey wrote:I don't see it. He grabbed 1 rebound every 3.06 min, same rebound rate as last year. He scored a point every 2.5 minutes. Same scoring rate. He fouled more in less minutes. He turned it over at a slightly better rate which I guess is the one thing he actually improved on (once every 15 min instead of once every 12 minutes.) His overall FG% improved slightly but he's not even at 50%, which for a 7' 1" C is not good. I can live with Len getting a moderate contract but you should only pay for his production and not his potential right now because he didn't make the year 3 leap after year 4 so he's 2 years behind where he should be right now.Marty wrote:
http://www.espn.com/nba/player/stats/_/ ... 7/alex-len
His stats regressed slightly last year, but that's partly because we signed Chandler to steal his minutes. He went down by 3 minutes per game from 23.3 to 20.3. That's a lot. If we had actually given him a starting/major role, his numbers would have gone up.
You've got to stop looking at his overall fg% numbers. That's coaching. Len, if coached to his strengths, would be a better version of Williams. His problem is that we keep trying to run plays through him.carey wrote:I don't see it. He grabbed 1 rebound every 3.06 min, same rebound rate as last year. He scored a point every 2.5 minutes. Same scoring rate. He fouled more in less minutes. He turned it over at a slightly better rate which I guess is the one thing he actually improved on (once every 15 min instead of once every 12 minutes.) His overall FG% improved slightly but he's not even at 50%, which for a 7' 1" C is not good. I can live with Len getting a moderate contract but you should only pay for his production and not his potential right now because he didn't make the year 3 leap after year 4 so he's 2 years behind where he should be right now.Marty wrote:
http://www.espn.com/nba/player/stats/_/ ... 7/alex-len
His stats regressed slightly last year, but that's partly because we signed Chandler to steal his minutes. He went down by 3 minutes per game from 23.3 to 20.3. That's a lot. If we had actually given him a starting/major role, his numbers would have gone up.
Agreed. I'm willing to pay (a little) more for Len than Williams because I still believe he can continue to develop, and because he fills a hole that the suns would need to fill anyways if they let him leave.Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:I like Sauce but I think he is starting to get overrated by many here. He's undersized (vertically) and oversized (horizontally) compared to what you'd want in an NBA center. He has a nose for the ball and is currently a better rebounder than Len, but Len will always have size and height on Williams. Len is also a much better shooter. And Len is a few years younger and has more room to grow in his career, while Williams probably won't get much better than he currently is due to his age and years playing pro hoops. I think Len is a higher ceiling player overall despite the fact that Williams is probably currently better in several ways.
Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:I like Sauce but I think he is starting to get overrated by many here. He's undersized (vertically) and oversized (horizontally) compared to what you'd want in an NBA center.
Looks like we always take the late bloomers... Seriously, other big men have made some impact from year 1, I know Alex enter the league young but he was not Jermaine O'Neal young, besides, we are talking about a frigging former 5th pick!!!Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:Remember Robin Lopez. We gave up on him at just the wrong time. I think we should keep Len because big men take longer and he's shown promise and improvement. I think if we sign him for 2-3 more years, he'll grow and improve a lot during that time. I don't want to break the bank, but around $10-12 mil a year is fine for him.
Unseld had some similarities and I like the comparison, but he was also a great passer, and was a terrific defensive player despite his (relative) lack of height.Cap wrote:Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:I like Sauce but I think he is starting to get overrated by many here. He's undersized (vertically) and oversized (horizontally) compared to what you'd want in an NBA center.
Man I think you couldn't be further off on this.Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:I like Sauce but I think he is starting to get overrated by many here. He's undersized (vertically) and oversized (horizontally) compared to what you'd want in an NBA center. He has a nose for the ball and is currently a better rebounder than Len, but Len will always have size and height on Williams. Len is also a much better shooter. And Len is a few years younger and has more room to grow in his career, while Williams probably won't get much better than he currently is due to his age and years playing pro hoops. I think Len is a higher ceiling player overall despite the fact that Williams is probably currently better in several ways.
Preach, WW.Wormwood wrote:Strongly disagree. Williams was 8th in the NBA in defensive rebounding rate, 9th in offensive rebounding rate, and 6th in overall rebounding rate. The guy is an ELITE rebounder. He's also ranked 22nd among power forwards in Defensive Real Plus Minus, and had the second highest player efficiency rating on the team, behind only Bledsoe (19.6 to 20.6). His net RPM was 4th highest on the team (behind Bled, Chandler, and Dudley). He had an Offensive Rating of 113 (very good) according to basketball reference.
In comparison, Len is much worse in every single category I mentioned.
He's also only 24, which means locking him up for 4 years keeps him while he's in his prime (compared with Dudley and Tyson, who are on the back end).
I don't know if you can coach poor hands and poor awareness out of him. Those two traits, combined with his somewhat robotic movement make him look worse than he actually is, but even conceding him the benefit of doubt (see that I am not even getting into lack of post moves, etc), I don't see anything special.O_Gardino wrote:Len, if coached to his strengths, would be a better version of Williams. His problem is that we keep trying to run plays through him.