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Re: 2018 Suns Offseason News
Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 1:18 am
by Mori Chu
The Bobster wrote: ↑Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:36 pm
O_Gardino wrote: ↑Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:23 pm
If y'all want Warren higher in the rankings, what 2 things is he Very Good at?
Well, what are the two things Josh Jackson is very good at then?
The argument isn't that he doesn't have holes in his game, it's that he doesn't have the huge holes that Jackson has right now.
Warren and Jackson are flawed in somewhat opposite ways. If you could merge the two of them into one player, he'd be a stellar starting small forward. Alas.
Re: 2018 Suns Offseason News
Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:04 am
by Hermen
Marty [Mori Chu] wrote: ↑Sat Sep 15, 2018 1:18 am
The Bobster wrote: ↑Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:36 pm
O_Gardino wrote: ↑Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:23 pm
If y'all want Warren higher in the rankings, what 2 things is he Very Good at?
Well, what are the two things Josh Jackson is very good at then?
The argument isn't that he doesn't have holes in his game, it's that he doesn't have the huge holes that Jackson has right now.
Warren and Jackson are flawed in somewhat opposite ways. If you could merge the two of them into one player, he'd be a stellar starting small forward. Alas.
Who still couldn't shoot.
Re: 2018 Suns Offseason News
Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:31 am
by Ring_Wanted
TheOriginalOriginal wrote: ↑Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:57 pm
TJ Warren is vastly underrated here. He's significantly better than Josh Jackson and pretty much every Sun not named Booker.
Absolutely agree. Many look at how terrible the team has been and just shrug and paint him as a limited player, but TJ's shotmaking ability doesn't grow on trees. Until we see what Ayton does at this level, and until Jackson gets smarter, Warren is clearly our second best offensive option.
People say he plain can't shoot, but that's not accurate. He can't shoot 3s (at this point, his 40% on 1 attempt his second year can't be considered more than a fluke until proven otherwise). But he is money from midrange. And like I said, he is a terrific offensive rebounder (another underrated skill) and a finisher (especially in transition). He even made progress defensively last year.
Re: 2018 Suns Offseason News
Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:41 am
by ShelC
My main issue is that you can't really play Jackson and Warren together because of their lack of outside shooting. Yea, they can the 3 but neither are shooters. Bridges is the key guy in the equation.
Re: 2018 Suns Offseason News
Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 7:56 am
by Ring_Wanted
Yeah, Warren-Jackson together is a challenge. Whoever is playing point would need to be a good 3pt shooter, as well as at least one of the bigs if those two are your 2-3. I see why point-Booker is going to be a thing. But regardless, if you slide Warren to PF, you suddenly have it easier because we have SFs who can defend and shoot in Bridges and Ariza. Then you'd have Anderson-Bender-Holmes backing up the 4-5, which is not great on paper.
Re: 2018 Suns Offseason News
Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:41 am
by Cap
Ring_Wanted wrote: ↑Sat Sep 15, 2018 7:56 am
Then you'd have Anderson-Bender-Holmes backing up the 4-5, which is not great on paper.
If only the game were played on NBA 2K instead of on paper!
Re: 2018 Suns Offseason News
Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:48 am
by Superbone
You guys act like Warren and Jackson could never learn to shoot the 3 well. I think we might be surprised at Warren's 3 point shooting this year.
Re: 2018 Suns Offseason News
Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:23 am
by Superbone
Re: 2018 Suns Offseason News
Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 12:04 pm
by Superbone
Re: 2018 Suns Offseason News
Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 1:37 pm
by Mori Chu
Superbone wrote: ↑Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:48 am
You guys act like Warren and Jackson could never learn to shoot the 3 well. I think we might be surprised at Warren's 3 point shooting this year.
It is possible. But I don't have a lot of confidence that Jackson will improve his shooting. His form is just so wretched. I hope they have him completely redo his shooting mechanics from the ground up. They might as well; his shooting is not at all good presently, so there isn't much to lose.
Warren, on the other hand, I think he could learn a corner 3 if he just worked on it all summer with a shooting coach.
Re: 2018 Suns Offseason News
Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:31 pm
by O_Gardino
The Bobster wrote: ↑Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:36 pm
O_Gardino wrote: ↑Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:23 pm
If y'all want Warren higher in the rankings, what 2 things is he Very Good at?
Well, what are the two things Josh Jackson is very good at then?
The argument isn't that he doesn't have holes in his game, it's that he doesn't have the huge holes that Jackson has right now.
Creating off the dribble.
Defense.
Warren was better than Jax in 2017, but not in 2018. And Jax should be all around better than he was last year now that he isn't a rookie.
Re: 2018 Suns Offseason News
Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:32 pm
by O_Gardino
ShelC wrote: ↑Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:41 am
My main issue is that you can't really play Jackson and Warren together because of their lack of outside shooting. Yea, they can the 3 but neither are shooters. Bridges is the key guy in the equation.
Agreed. I like them both, but don't think we have a strong enough team overall to compensate for both.
Re: 2018 Suns Offseason News
Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:34 pm
by O_Gardino
Marty [Mori Chu] wrote: ↑Sat Sep 15, 2018 1:37 pm
Superbone wrote: ↑Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:48 am
You guys act like Warren and Jackson could never learn to shoot the 3 well. I think we might be surprised at Warren's 3 point shooting this year.
It is possible. But I don't have a lot of confidence that Jackson will improve his shooting. His form is just so wretched. I hope they have him completely redo his shooting mechanics from the ground up. They might as well; his shooting is not at all good presently, so there isn't much to lose.
Warren, on the other hand, I think he could learn a corner 3 if he just worked on it all summer with a shooting coach.
I sure hope they both become good shooters. But Jackson's form doesn't look fixable, and Warren hasn't improved in his 4 seasons. I'd be thrilled to be wrong on this one.
Re: 2018 Suns Offseason News
Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:04 pm
by Split T
I don't understand the Jackson's form doesn't look fixable idea...how can a form be unfixable. Also, your shooting form doesn't have to be perfect. Sure, it helps, and Jackson may never become a good shooter, but let's not pretend there is no chance.
Re: 2018 Suns Offseason News
Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:38 pm
by In2ition
Split T wrote: ↑Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:04 pm
I don't understand the Jackson's form doesn't look fixable idea...how can a form be unfixable. Also, your shooting form doesn't have to be perfect. Sure, it helps, and Jackson may never become a good shooter, but let's not pretend there is no chance.
Right? I have supreme confidence in my ability to fix anyone's shot, and I'm not an NBA skills coach.
Re: 2018 Suns Offseason News
Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:39 pm
by ShelC
If he's been shooting that way for years, it's probably not even a good idea to try and fix it. You can't just re-work a guy's shot over a summer and have him become Klay Thompson. I don't know that there are any examples of this. All he can do is practice and get reps and become somewhat consistent, but he'll never be a "shooter". Jackson and Warren are scorers, Bridges is a shooter. We took him to complement Booker on the perimeter, knowing his form was what it was and that he's a rhythm scorer and not a shooter. He was drafted to play D, run the break and handle a bit. Bridges was drafted to play defense and shoot 3s.
Re: 2018 Suns Offseason News
Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:43 pm
by Cap
ShelC wrote: ↑Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:39 pm
You can't just re-work a guy's shot over a summer and have him become Klay Thompson. I don't know that there are any examples of this.
Jeff Hornacek?
Re: 2018 Suns Offseason News
Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:05 pm
by Split T
No one is asking him to be Klay Thompson. But there are plenty of examples of non shooters becoming good shooters. There are also shooters with ugly forms that s hot respectively(Kevin martin, marion, barbosa, tayshaun prince)
Re: 2018 Suns Offseason News
Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:37 pm
by In2ition
ShelC wrote: ↑Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:39 pm
If he's been shooting that way for years, it's probably not even a good idea to try and fix it. You can't just re-work a guy's shot over a summer and have him become Klay Thompson.
He doesn't have to become an all-time great shooter, but you absolutely can change your shot over a summer. I've fixed and changed players shots in only 6 weeks. You can change it and improve the effiiency a ton in 4 months.
Re: 2018 Suns Offseason News
Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:49 pm
by O_Gardino
Split T wrote: ↑Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:05 pm
No one is asking him to be Klay Thompson. But there are plenty of examples of non shooters becoming good shooters. There are also shooters with ugly forms that s hot respectively(Kevin martin, marion, barbosa, tayshaun prince)
No one is expecting him to be as bad as Dwight Howard, either. But if he works on his shot like Shel is describing, and if he does become that Shawn Marion or Draymond Green 33% 3pt shooter, he will still be the guy the other team dares to shoot. That can be ok if you have enough other options in the offense.