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Re: Ryan out as GM
Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 12:13 am
by gosuns
Cap wrote: ↑Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:44 pm
Superbone wrote: ↑Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:35 pm
pickle wrote: ↑Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:10 pm
Sorry but you lost me at "tell Sarver to lean back and trust me"...
I learned that you should never trust anybody who says, "trust me."
Or “believe me,” “everybody says,” or “I heard somewhere.” Or “SAD!”
Well you got me. What I really meant is stay the fuck out of my business.
Re: Ryan out as GM
Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 12:36 am
by SDC
Philly transitioned from hinkie to colangelo... suns from mcdo to... james jones???
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Re: Ryan out as GM
Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 4:49 am
by Ring_Wanted
pickle wrote: ↑Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:12 pm
Agree with the assessment on Jackson, but disagree on the fact that he doesn't suit us. I'm not sure what the difference is between the beginning of a rebuild and an end of a rebuild, but we are not challenging for a playoff spot for 2 years, realistically speaking, and we still must focus on player development. As for the "not that young as a prospect" stuff I also respectfully disagree. He was 20 when he was a rookie, not 19 or 18... but he is still just 21 years old, barely able to drink. If he can't figure it out by time he's 23 or 24, then I'd be really worried. As far as I'm concerned last year was a lost year. if he really can play under control and figure out his strengths and focus on D, I still have hopes that he'll be an important rotational piece on a championship contender in 3 years. A #4 pick that turns out to be the #3 guy in a real contender is not bad. As a Suns fan, I'll take that all day.
Beginning of a rebuild: disregard wins, amass assets and talent, regardless of fit.
End of a rebuild: aim for wins, assemble a team that makes sense around the core of kids you acquired during the earlier stages.
Jackson is a talent, but pretty raw. To the point that it is starting to look that he is going to be a net negative on the court. You can afford to wait for him if you have some years ahead where you don't plan to compete, but for better or worse that's not the plan anymore. Then you have the logjam issue at the wings, which makes him even more expendable.
Again, I wouldn't just dump him, but I'd want to know his value around the league.
Re: Ryan out as GM
Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:35 pm
by Uncle_Gene
Alex Lin didn't work. Chriss and Bender needed the G-League. They needed size at the start of the '14-'15 season and the roster was overloaded with PG's and SF's. He's good at analytics but too many strikeouts.
Re: Ryan out as GM
Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:50 pm
by pickle
Ring_Wanted wrote: ↑Mon Oct 15, 2018 4:49 am
pickle wrote: ↑Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:12 pm
Agree with the assessment on Jackson, but disagree on the fact that he doesn't suit us. I'm not sure what the difference is between the beginning of a rebuild and an end of a rebuild, but we are not challenging for a playoff spot for 2 years, realistically speaking, and we still must focus on player development. As for the "not that young as a prospect" stuff I also respectfully disagree. He was 20 when he was a rookie, not 19 or 18... but he is still just 21 years old, barely able to drink. If he can't figure it out by time he's 23 or 24, then I'd be really worried. As far as I'm concerned last year was a lost year. if he really can play under control and figure out his strengths and focus on D, I still have hopes that he'll be an important rotational piece on a championship contender in 3 years. A #4 pick that turns out to be the #3 guy in a real contender is not bad. As a Suns fan, I'll take that all day.
Beginning of a rebuild: disregard wins, amass assets and talent, regardless of fit.
End of a rebuild: aim for wins, assemble a team that makes sense around the core of kids you acquired during the earlier stages.
Jackson is a talent, but pretty raw. To the point that it is starting to look that he is going to be a net negative on the court. You can afford to wait for him if you have some years ahead where you don't plan to compete, but for better or worse that's not the plan anymore. Then you have the logjam issue at the wings, which makes him even more expendable.
Again, I wouldn't just dump him, but I'd want to know his value around the league.
Yeah it sucks that Sarver thinks we are targeting the playoffs, but honestly by your definition I'd say we are still in early to middle phase of the rebuild. We are not close to winning yet.
Re: Ryan out as GM
Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:55 am
by Ring_Wanted
We are not close to winning not because we don't intend to (which we do, at least going by the official line), but because the FO couldn't design and/or execute a solid plan to bring balance to this roster, despite all the assets available.
Booker-Ayton is a monster core, and with them you can absolutely enter a season under a win now mindset, but you need the right kind of veteran role players (plus a third option, which I want to believe we already have in TJ). Supposedly they tried, but it looks like they failed miserably, given the gigantic holes in our roster at PG and PF.
Re: Ryan out as GM
Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:47 am
by In2ition
Ring_Wanted wrote: ↑Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:55 am
We are not close to winning not because we don't intend to (which we do, at least going by the official line), but because the FO couldn't design and/or execute a solid plan to bring balance to this roster, despite all the assets available.
Booker-Ayton is a monster core, and with them you can absolutely enter a season under a win now mindset, but you need the right kind of veteran role players (plus a third option, which I want to believe we already have in TJ). Supposedly they tried, but it looks like they failed miserably, given the gigantic holes in our roster at PG and PF.
Now that the Good Doctor is gone, we are getting AD and Lillard next year to fill those whole. Haven't you heard?
Re: Ryan out as GM
Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:33 am
by O_Gardino
I don't think you can rebuild a whole roster in one summer. Stopgaps are ok. No matter what, we wouldn't have had all our long term guys in place this year.
The problem is the 2 draft picks and 15 million the Suns spent at SF where we already had 2 players. They really couldn't find a better use of those resources?
Re: Ryan out as GM
Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:21 am
by Split T
I wouldn't count George King as a wasted resource. He was a late, late 2nd on a 2 way deal.
So we signed one to a 1 year deal and drafted 1. Chances are Bridges won't be ready for big time minutes, so he gets a year to learn behind Ariza. Plus all 4 of our SF can play 2-3 positions. It's not the logjam many on here claim it is.
A PG would be nice. There is definitely an argument to be made for drafting SGA ahead of Bridges. Or using our cap space to sign one. We did sign a PG, draft a PG, and trade for a PG. Just not one that seems ready for starter level minutes.
Re: Ryan out as GM
Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:12 am
by O_Gardino
Split T wrote:I wouldn't count George King as a wasted resource. He was a late, late 2nd on a 2 way deal.
So we signed one to a 1 year deal and drafted 1. Chances are Bridges won't be ready for big time minutes, so he gets a year to learn behind Ariza. Plus all 4 of our SF can play 2-3 positions. It's not the logjam many on here claim it is.
A PG would be nice. There is definitely an argument to be made for drafting SGA ahead of Bridges. Or using our cap space to sign one. We did sign a PG, draft a PG, and trade for a PG. Just not one that seems ready for starter level minutes.
It cost us 2 picks to get Bridges.
I’m actually a big fan of Mikal. Just not a fan of how the roster is constructed.
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Re: Ryan out as GM
Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:19 am
by Split T
Gotcha. What would you have done differently?
I was ok with the trade for Bridges. I think Philly took advantage of us a little as we were on the clock, but I like Bridges enough that I'm ok with it. I think we should have just drafted Zhaire and continued negotiating. We apparently didn't like Zhaire enough to get stuck with him.
If I could redo our off season, I would make one slight change. I'd trade up for SGA instead of Bridges. I loved them both, had SGA 7 and Bridges 8 on my board, but SGA made more sense from a need standpoint. I probably wouldn't have drafted Okobo at 31. I love Okobo, but after taking a PG already, I probably would have taken Khyri Thomas, who I also loved.
PG: SGA, Canaan, Melton
SG: Booker, Thomas, Daniels
SF: Ariza, Jackson, Reed
PF: Anderson, Warren, Bender
C: Ayton, Holmes, Chandler
Re: Ryan out as GM
Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:45 am
by O_Gardino
That's not a bad plan around SGA.
You could keep the 15 million to try to be a player in these trades being discussed.
You could draft Zhaire and let him grow under Igor.
You could get Mikal and Ariza and trade Warren / Jackson for a PG.
Re: Ryan out as GM
Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:08 pm
by Shabazz
Remember when Ryan said it was unlikely we bring in 4 rookies and then brought in 5? Good times.
Re: Ryan out as GM
Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:05 pm
by Aztec Sunsfan
Shabazz wrote: ↑Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:08 pm
Remember when Ryan said it was unlikely we bring in 4 rookies and then brought in 5? Good times.
Hey!
He was true to his word!!!
Re: Ryan out as GM
Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:48 pm
by Flagrant Fowl
The conspiracy bug in my brain is telling me that they went after Bridges because they think he'll be better than Jackson and TJ, which allows them to trade either or both to get a star player. I'm reluctant to believe they'll be able to pull that off, so we're stuck with three young guys who play the same position.
Re: Ryan out as GM
Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:38 pm
by Pips
SDC wrote: ↑Sat Oct 13, 2018 12:36 am
Philly transitioned from hinkie to colangelo... suns from mcdo to... james jones???
Philly transitioned from hinkie to colangelo to elton brand.
Re: Ryan out as GM
Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:31 pm
by O_Gardino
Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:48 pm
The conspiracy bug in my brain is telling me that they went after Bridges because they think he'll be better than Jackson and TJ, which allows them to trade either or both to get a star player. I'm reluctant to believe they'll be able to pull that off, so we're stuck with three young guys who play the same position.
Very possible. There were reports that they were trying to trade Warren for a point guard.
Re: Ryan out as GM
Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:36 pm
by Split T
Assuming we eventually get a PG, Bridges makes more sense as a long-term starter next to Booker. Jackson can run the offense in the 2nd unit.
Re: Ryan out as GM
Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:20 pm
by TOO
Split T wrote: ↑Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:36 pm
Assuming we eventually get a PG, Bridges makes more sense as a long-term starter next to Booker. Jackson can run the offense in the 2nd unit.
Yuck.
Re: Ryan out as GM
Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:12 am
by Mori Chu
Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:48 pm
The conspiracy bug in my brain is telling me that they went after Bridges because they think he'll be better than Jackson and TJ, which allows them to trade either or both to get a star player. I'm reluctant to believe they'll be able to pull that off, so we're stuck with three young guys who play the same position.
Honestly I think this post is giving McDo too much credit for long-term planning and thinking about how players fit together. I think he just saw Bridges and decided he liked him as a player and moved to get him as an asset. I doubt he really thought about our SF rotation or our roster as a whole.