Phx-Suns.Net

They also thought when they went away from drafting high schoolers that Chandler was one of those busts too. So that would have made 4 of the top 8. Turned out he was never as good as they thought he would become, but became a good player for a long time.

True, Chandler took some time to become the DPOY... and he never became the kg like player some people thought he might be offensively.

In2ition wrote:

carey wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 01, 2019 7:17 am

What's the difference between Garland and Morant for the Suns?

Athleticism, killer drive, about 10 spots and healthy knees.

Garland's knees are bad? Givony has him at 5 currently with Morant at 3.

Garland is interesting...he’s not the athlete that Morant is, but he can shoot. It’s unfortunate we didn’t get to see him play this year. I just don’t know that I want to invest in another rookie pg that I’m not certain is the answer. Still, if we end up at 5 or 6, you’ve got to consider him.

SDC wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:27 am

The Bobster wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 01, 2019 7:46 am

SDC wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 01, 2019 7:07 am

making them wait for one year wont kill them. i see the teams side in wanting to keep or expand one and done rules.

the more interesting idea is eliminating age limits completely.

I think that's the legal defense the NBA used in 1971 when Spencer Haywood took them to court.

Haywood v. National Basketball Association , 401 U.S. 1204 (1971), was a
U.S. Supreme Court decision that ruled, 7–2, against the National Basketball Association ’s (NBA) old requirement that a player may not be drafted by an NBA team unless he waited four years (which meant playing at the college level in most cases) following his graduation from high school.

making the player wait for one year is not a huge ask. the nba already tried direct to nba approach, and it didnt really work.

Yeah, you think I didn't know that already?

They NBA can only make changes through collective bargaining, but both the NBA and players association agree that the current system isn't working.

There's really no point in making a high school player enroll in college for a year so that a university can make money off him instead of him being paid. If the NBA doesn't think they're ready, set up a real minor league system, but it has to be agreed on my the union.

High Schoolers drafted in the first half of the first round, 1975-2005
(Total NBA games played)

1975 Darryl Dawkins, PHI (726)
1995 Kevin Garnett, MIN (1,462)
1996 Kobe Bryant, CHA (1,346)
1997 Tracy McGrady, TOR (938)
1999 Jonathan Bender, TOR (262) - career shortened by knee injuries
2000 Darius Miles, LAC (446) - career shortened by knee injury
2001 Kwame Brown, WAS (607)
2001 Tyson Chandler, CHI (1,131+)
2001 Eddy Curry, CHI (527) - career shortened by weight problems
2001 DeSagana Diop (601)
2002 Amare Stoudemire PHO (846)
2003 LeBron James, CLE (1,186+)
2004 Dwight Howard (1,104+)
2004 Al Jefferson, BOS (915)
2004 Shaun Livingston, LAC (818+)
2004 Robert Swift (97) - career shortened by knee injury
2004 Sebastian Telfair, POR (564)
2005 Andrew Bynum, LAL (418) - career shortened by knee injury
2005 Martell Webster, POR (580) - career shortened by foot and back injuries

Every player was named a McDonald's High School All-American (except Dawkins, who pre-dated the McDonald's High School All-American teams)

8 were All-Stars (Garnett, Bryant, McGrady, Chandler, Stoudemire, James, Howard, Bynum)
3 were very good (Dawkins, Jefferson, Livingston)
2 were bench players/role players (Diop/Telfair)
2 were flops (Brown, Curry)
4 had their careers curtailed by injury (Bender, Miles, Swift, Webster)

Yep, the whole idea that high schoolers entering the draft was ruining the nba is vastly overstated. There are 8 questionable lottery picks and 4 can mostly be explained by injuries.

It’s also interesting that the record of late 1sts and 2nd rounders picked straight out of high school is pretty good too.

Split T wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:20 pm

It’s also interesting that the record of late 1sts and 2nd rounders picked straight out of high school is pretty good too.

High School Players Selected in Second Half of First Round 1975-2005

1996 Jermaine O'Neal
1998 Al Harrington
1999 Leon Smith
2000 DeShawn Stevenson
2003 Travis Outlaw
2003 Kendrick Perkins
2004 Josh Smith
2004 J.R. Smith
2004 Dorell Wright
2005 Gerald Green

Here’s the same list bobster made of late 1st and 2nd rounders:

1996 Jermaine O’Neal (1011)
1998 Al Harrington (981)
1998 Rashard Lewis (1049)
1998 Korleone Young (3) - 40th pick
1999 Leon Smith (15) - 30th pick
2000 DeShawn Stevenson (824)
2001 Ousmane Cisse (0)- 46th pick
2003 Travis Outlaw (622)
2003 Ndudi Ebi (19) - 26th pick
2003 Kendrick Perkins (782)
2003 James Lang (11) - 48th pick
2004 Josh Smith (894)
2004 JR Smith (971+)
2004 Dorell Wright (549)
2005 Gerald Green (643+)
2005 CJ Miles (831+)
2005 Ricky Sánchez (0) - 35th pick
2005 Monta Ellis (833)
2005 Lou Williams (918+)
2005 Andray Blatche (564)
2005 Amir Johnson (858+)

So 2 all stars (O’Neal and Lewis)
4-5 high level guys(Williams, Ellis, Smith, Smith, Harrington)
8 role players(blatche, Johnson, miles, green, Wright, Perkins, Stevenson, outlaw)
6 busts (young, Smith, ebi, Sanchez, Cisse, Lang) 4 of which were 2nd round picks, 1 was 30th and the other was 26th

I remember it took a while for Jermaine O'Neal to come into his own but eventually he got there. You have to be more patient with guys straight out of HS and it most likely will take longer before they become productive.

True, Jermaime O’Neal never really played well for Portland. Wasn’t until he got to Indy that he got good. So he was an all star and makes it look like a great pick, but in reality, it was not a good pick for Portland.

In Portland O'Neal was always playing behind guys like Clifford Robinson, Rasheed Wallace, Arvydas Sabonis and Brian Grant.

Ya I just checked his numbers, Portland never really gave him a chance. He made a huge jump in Indy and a lot of that can probably be explained by opportunity.

The Bobster wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:08 pm

SDC wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:27 am

The Bobster wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 01, 2019 7:46 am

SDC wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 01, 2019 7:07 am

making them wait for one year wont kill them. i see the teams side in wanting to keep or expand one and done rules.

the more interesting idea is eliminating age limits completely.

I think that's the legal defense the NBA used in 1971 when Spencer Haywood took them to court.

Haywood v. National Basketball Association , 401 U.S. 1204 (1971), was a
U.S. Supreme Court decision that ruled, 7–2, against the National Basketball Association ’s (NBA) old requirement that a player may not be drafted by an NBA team unless he waited four years (which meant playing at the college level in most cases) following his graduation from high school.

making the player wait for one year is not a huge ask. the nba already tried direct to nba approach, and it didnt really work.

Yeah, you think I didn't know that already?

They NBA can only make changes through collective bargaining, but both the NBA and players association agree that the current system isn't working.

There's really no point in making a high school player enroll in college for a year so that a university can make money off him instead of him being paid. If the NBA doesn't think they're ready, set up a real minor league system, but it has to be agreed on my the union.

So the age limit was illegal in 1971 because it wasn’t collectively bargained?

The success rate of high school players drafted relative to their draft position is much higher than that of Freshmen, Sophomores, Juniors, Seniors or Euros. In fact, the longer a player stays in college, the more likely they are to bust relative to their draft position.

I've always been for allowing HS players to enter the NBA, but I do get the argument of not wanting to have your GMs have to scout high school gyms.

I agree that the solution may lie in the D-League and I think the NBA is taking steps in that direction.

Cap wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:32 pm

The Bobster wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:08 pm

SDC wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:27 am

The Bobster wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 01, 2019 7:46 am

SDC wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 01, 2019 7:07 am

making them wait for one year wont kill them. i see the teams side in wanting to keep or expand one and done rules.

the more interesting idea is eliminating age limits completely.

I think that's the legal defense the NBA used in 1971 when Spencer Haywood took them to court.

Haywood v. National Basketball Association , 401 U.S. 1204 (1971), was a
U.S. Supreme Court decision that ruled, 7–2, against the National Basketball Association ’s (NBA) old requirement that a player may not be drafted by an NBA team unless he waited four years (which meant playing at the college level in most cases) following his graduation from high school.

making the player wait for one year is not a huge ask. the nba already tried direct to nba approach, and it didnt really work.

Yeah, you think I didn't know that already?

They NBA can only make changes through collective bargaining, but both the NBA and players association agree that the current system isn't working.

There's really no point in making a high school player enroll in college for a year so that a university can make money off him instead of him being paid. If the NBA doesn't think they're ready, set up a real minor league system, but it has to be agreed on my the union.

So the age limit was illegal in 1971 because it wasn’t collectively bargained?

Yes.

The ruling in Clarett vs National Football League in 2004 was that if the age limit is established through collective bargaining it makes the league exempt from antitrust claims unless the league and the union were conspiring to drive competition out of the market.

The pre-Haywood vs NBA age limit wasn't established through collective bargaining, so it was subject to anti-trust law.

The Bobster wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:24 pm

Cap wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:32 pm

The Bobster wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:08 pm

SDC wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:27 am

The Bobster wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 01, 2019 7:46 am

I think that's the legal defense the NBA used in 1971 when Spencer Haywood took them to court.

Haywood v. National Basketball Association , 401 U.S. 1204 (1971), was a
U.S. Supreme Court decision that ruled, 7–2, against the National Basketball Association ’s (NBA) old requirement that a player may not be drafted by an NBA team unless he waited four years (which meant playing at the college level in most cases) following his graduation from high school.

making the player wait for one year is not a huge ask. the nba already tried direct to nba approach, and it didnt really work.

Yeah, you think I didn't know that already?

They NBA can only make changes through collective bargaining, but both the NBA and players association agree that the current system isn't working.

There's really no point in making a high school player enroll in college for a year so that a university can make money off him instead of him being paid. If the NBA doesn't think they're ready, set up a real minor league system, but it has to be agreed on my the union.

So the age limit was illegal in 1971 because it wasn’t collectively bargained?

Yes.

The ruling in Clarett vs National Football League in 2004 was that if the age limit is established through collective bargaining it makes the league exempt from antitrust claims unless the league and the union were conspiring to drive competition out of the market.

The pre-Haywood vs NBA age limit wasn't established through collective bargaining, so it was subject to anti-trust law.

Do you know what the NBPA’s role was in the ’71 case? If they weren’t a party, I assume they filed an amicus for one side or the other.

I would assume they were involved to some degree - the Oscar Robertson Suit had been filed in 1970 to block the proposed merger, so I'm sure they took interest in ANY antitrust litigation involving the league.

I have a couple of Haywood biographies, but they're both in storage. I don't remember anything about the league assisting him, but it's been 27 years since I read the more recent of the two (Spencer Haywood: The Rise, the Fall, the Recovery)

The Bobster wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:08 pm

They NBA can only make changes through collective bargaining, but both the NBA and players association agree that the current system isn't working.

I get the impression that it is only adam silver, not the owners, who agree with the players on this. he's gonna get fired within 5 yrs after implementation of the new rules. as they say, get woke, go broke.

There's really no point in making a high school player enroll in college for a year so that a university can make money off him instead of him being paid. If the NBA doesn't think they're ready, set up a real minor league system, but it has to be agreed on my the union.

or they can go to europe or asia or the gleague.