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Re: All Things Ayton

Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 7:17 am
by Mori Chu
I just hope Ayton doesn't start ballhogging and chucking shots to prove that he's a "max player." The way he bought into the system and played a perfect role late last season/playoffs is just about exactly what I want from him. Sure, if I could tweak his game I'd make him a bit more aggressive with the ball in his hands. But I would not want to turn him into a bull charging at the basket every time he got the ball.

Re: All Things Ayton

Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 7:28 am
by Indy
There is no way the players on this team would let him do that, and he doesn't seem like the kind of guy that would do that either.

Re: All Things Ayton

Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:21 am
by wpmiller42
virtual9mm wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:52 am
Fascinating how perceptions have shifted after the James Jones interview with The Athletic.

I'm a bit disappointed how Bill Duffy has become the guy that bargains this way.
One thing I learned from the article is that you can't have two guys on the 5-year rookie max extensions, and that is a possible reason for not wanting to dole those out, which makes some sense to me. I do think now that you've thrown that out there, we should at least be hearing rumors of Jones going after some of these guys on the trade front in the coming years then.

Re: All Things Ayton

Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:28 am
by Democritus
I can feel KAT in the Air tonight!
Don't mess with James Jones.
And do not come with arguments regarding his defensive ratings. Before Monty, Book was a liability on defense as well. Culture and environment changes everything, especially your mentality and approach regarding playing defense.

Re: All Things Ayton

Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:13 am
by Indy
those are good points

Re: All Things Ayton

Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:51 am
by jonh
ShelC wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 7:15 am
Hardcore fans close to the team understand the situation far better than national media/outside fans. On the outside, it's same ol' Sarver/Suns not maxing their #1 pick/big man who just helped lead them to the Finals.
I still disagree--I think there is a contingent of Suns fans that views this as Sarver not willing to pay (I am one of them). Im curious to see whether any Suns players share a similar perspective.

Regardless, it is likely that we will look back on this situation as a major turning point in either Ayton's development or commitment to the team.

Re: All Things Ayton

Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:59 am
by Split T
KOC brought up the idea that Sarver being cheap is a front and that it’s really the suns front office that is skeptical of Ayton. I tend to think that’s the case as well. I really think Sarver is letting Jones run the show. I don’t know Jones big plan, but it clearly doesn’t have Ayton on a designated max contract.

Re: All Things Ayton

Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:11 am
by MightyMoog
I still think it's really simple. Hand a max contract to a player that's not an all-star and it will sink your franchise. We're still not 100% sure he will become one. And since the team has nothing to lose in waiting another year, what is the incentive to sign something now?

Re: All Things Ayton

Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:33 am
by ShelC
jonh wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:51 am
ShelC wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 7:15 am
Hardcore fans close to the team understand the situation far better than national media/outside fans. On the outside, it's same ol' Sarver/Suns not maxing their #1 pick/big man who just helped lead them to the Finals.
I still disagree--I think there is a contingent of Suns fans that views this as Sarver not willing to pay (I am one of them). Im curious to see whether any Suns players share a similar perspective.

Regardless, it is likely that we will look back on this situation as a major turning point in either Ayton's development or commitment to the team.
Ha, all the other Suns players got paid! We did just pay CP, Mikal and Shamet so it's tough to paint Sarver as all that cheap in this situation. And I do think part of his job, as owner, is to take the heat from the fans and press in instances such as this. Better him than having Jones or Monty take a hit to their rep around the league or with the team.

Re: All Things Ayton

Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:37 am
by ShelC
wpmiller42 wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:21 am
virtual9mm wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:52 am
Fascinating how perceptions have shifted after the James Jones interview with The Athletic.

I'm a bit disappointed how Bill Duffy has become the guy that bargains this way.
One thing I learned from the article is that you can't have two guys on the 5-year rookie max extensions, and that is a possible reason for not wanting to dole those out, which makes some sense to me. I do think now that you've thrown that out there, we should at least be hearing rumors of Jones going after some of these guys on the trade front in the coming years then.
You can't have more than two players on the rookie max, which in most cases would be Book and DA. But we're not giving it to DA because we want to potentially add someone on a rookie max deal, but not give up DA in the process? Seems a bit far fetched and may the FO covering for themselves.

Re: All Things Ayton

Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:03 am
by Indy
ShelC wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:37 am
wpmiller42 wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:21 am
virtual9mm wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:52 am
Fascinating how perceptions have shifted after the James Jones interview with The Athletic.

I'm a bit disappointed how Bill Duffy has become the guy that bargains this way.
One thing I learned from the article is that you can't have two guys on the 5-year rookie max extensions, and that is a possible reason for not wanting to dole those out, which makes some sense to me. I do think now that you've thrown that out there, we should at least be hearing rumors of Jones going after some of these guys on the trade front in the coming years then.
You can't have more than two players on the rookie max, which in most cases would be Book and DA. But we're not giving it to DA because we want to potentially add someone on a rookie max deal, but not give up DA in the process? Seems a bit far fetched and may the FO covering for themselves.
What if it is the other way around? What if they have potential suitors for DA and that team already has 2. And the guy we want back isn't on a rookie max? It just makes it easier to do things--in some ways--if he isn't on a designated rookie max.

But we just saw a 35 year old Chris Paul on a 40M contract get traded. And Westbrook on a 40M/year deal on his 4th team in 2.5 years!

So I am not buying it 100%, but I do think there is some truth there.

Re: All Things Ayton

Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:30 am
by AmareIsGod
Another great read from The Athletic

Why Suns Decision Not To Extend Ayton is Baffling

https://theathletic.com/2898177/2021/10 ... ed-article
► Show Spoiler

Re: All Things Ayton

Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:21 pm
by Cap
Anybody remember Austin Croshere? As a third-year player, he had a terrific playoff run as his team made it to the Finals, and he was paid accordingly. That playoff run proved to be an aberration and he never came close to living up to his new contract.

If Ayton wants to hold out for a 5-year max, I’m OK with making him prove his value first. One playoff run is not proof.

That’s not disrespect. It’s just being realistic.

Re: All Things Ayton

Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:49 pm
by JeremyG
Split T wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:58 am


This is interesting and actually makes a lot of sense as we have quite a few tradeable contracts now to combine together next year for another star. But we would be limited on who we could trade for if we gave Ayton the 5 year designated max.
I can't believe that James Jones is actually thinking like that. There is no guarantee that you'll be able to trade for a star down the road. Why worry about a possible trade in the future for a max player, when you have a homegrown one now who wanted to be here for the next 6 years?! It's ridiculous. And as Sam Amick said, "the prospect of landing a player of that caliber without giving up Booker or Ayton in return is likely far-fetched." So what's the point of witholding it from Ayton?

And the fact that the gap in negotations wasn't even about the amount per year (according to Jones' claims) but the number of years is utterly astounding. Why would you not want to keep your 23-year old player for the maximum number of years???

Jones' rationalizations about the negotiations (or lack thereof) seemed incoherent. Very shocking to me. I thought he was smarter than this.

Re: All Things Ayton

Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:50 pm
by JeremyG
Indy wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:54 pm
ShelC wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:44 pm
SunsRIt wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:08 pm
The simple fact of the matter is Ayton is now in a contract year. He needs to go to the out this season and leave no doubt he is a max player. Time for him to put up or shut up. In his career he has put up less than 50 games that warrant a max contract. Many of those happened to occur in the playoffs. I would argue that the last 3-4 games in the playoffs we saw the same old Ayton, low drive and low enthusiasm. I have stated ad nauseum that big men take time to develop(even giving examples of some of the most dominant big men in NBA history).

The time for excuses is over. He needs to be DominAyton this year. If he does that he will get the contract he wants.
This is what I've been wondering since yesterday...is there anything DA could do that would make the FO/Sarver change their position and give him a full 5 year max (whatever that number actually is)? If we go back to the Finals and win with DA playing the exact same role as he did this year, would the Suns pony up? What if something clicks and he starts really dominating inside, finishing strong, initiating contact and getting to the line but we end up losing in the 2nd round?
I am putting a lot of stock into the theory that they want to keep their options open on acquiring a guy on a designated rookie max extension contract. They have to have someone in mind that they think fits with this team really well, that is on that contract right now, and will want out or the team is willing to move. But i am struggling to think of who that guys is, because it would have to be a "James Jones guy" and I am not sure KAT is that.
Even if it's KAT, that makes no sense. You would likely be trading Ayton for KAT, so it wouldn't matter that Ayton is your second designated rookie max player.

Re: All Things Ayton

Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:51 pm
by JeremyG
ShelC wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 7:15 am
Hardcore fans close to the team understand the situation far better than national media/outside fans. On the outside, it's same ol' Sarver/Suns not maxing their #1 pick/big man who just helped lead them to the Finals.
Nope. That's just reality. All of their excuses in the world can't get rid of that.

And the outside view is important. Other players won't want to come here with Sarver continuing that reputation.

Re: All Things Ayton

Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:53 pm
by JeremyG
Oatmeal wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:04 am
If they hadn't re-upped Bridges and Shamet, I'd have been pretty upset about the Ayton thing just because it looks bad from the outside. Jones sees the value in perimeter play, shooting and ball movement are king (unless you have an outlier like Giannis). Ayton for all of his post season growth has still played maybe 30 games that show he'd be worth a max deal. Smart business here from Jones and co. Even if it basically admits they blew it taking him first overall.
Nonsense. Ayton was arguably our most valuable player in the postseason (CP3 said that himself at one point). Without him, there is no way we would have gotten to the Finals.

Re: All Things Ayton

Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 2:00 pm
by JeremyG
Cap wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:21 pm
Anybody remember Austin Croshere? As a third-year player, he had a terrific playoff run as his team made it to the Finals, and he was paid accordingly. That playoff run proved to be an aberration and he never came close to living up to his new contract.

If Ayton wants to hold out for a 5-year max, I’m OK with making him prove his value first. One playoff run is not proof.

That’s not disrespect. It’s just being realistic.
You're seriously comparing Ayton to Austin Croshere? Croshere never had anywhere near the resume that Ayton has built for three whole years. And Croshere was only good for one series (the Finals).

Re: All Things Ayton

Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 2:31 pm
by Cap
JeremyG wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 2:00 pm
Cap wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:21 pm
Anybody remember Austin Croshere? As a third-year player, he had a terrific playoff run as his team made it to the Finals, and he was paid accordingly. That playoff run proved to be an aberration and he never came close to living up to his new contract.

If Ayton wants to hold out for a 5-year max, I’m OK with making him prove his value first. One playoff run is not proof.

That’s not disrespect. It’s just being realistic.
You're seriously comparing Ayton to Austin Croshere? Croshere never had anywhere near the resume that Ayton has built for three whole years. And Croshere was only good for one series (the Finals).
Not exactly comparing the two players, just pointing out that sometimes players overachieve and then revert. The Suns would be taking a huge risk by giving him a supermax contract now when he hasn’t even made an All-Star team.

If he wants the supermax contract, I’m OK telling him to prove it for the next eight months. We’ll still have the option of signing him to the supermax next summer. If he wants the security of having that contract now, he should sacrifice a few bucks. If he wants to get paid based on what he’s going to do next year, he can get paid after next year. If he wants to get paid now, he can get paid based on what he’s already proved.

If he proves to be worth the supermax, we can offer him the max QO next summer, and we have guaranteed control of him through 2025 at least, even if he signs an offer sheet from another team.

Re: All Things Ayton

Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 2:32 pm
by Indy
JeremyG wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:49 pm
Split T wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:58 am


This is interesting and actually makes a lot of sense as we have quite a few tradeable contracts now to combine together next year for another star. But we would be limited on who we could trade for if we gave Ayton the 5 year designated max.
I can't believe that James Jones is actually thinking like that. There is no guarantee that you'll be able to trade for a star down the road. Why worry about a possible trade in the future for a max player, when you have a homegrown one now who wanted to be here for the next 6 years?! It's ridiculous. And as Sam Amick said, "the prospect of landing a player of that caliber without giving up Booker or Ayton in return is likely far-fetched." So what's the point of witholding it from Ayton?

And the fact that the gap in negotations wasn't even about the amount per year (according to Jones' claims) but the number of years is utterly astounding. Why would you not want to keep your 23-year old player for the maximum number of years???

Jones' rationalizations about the negotiations (or lack thereof) seemed incoherent. Very shocking to me. I thought he was smarter than this.
That is literally his job. Find a way to put the best team together. If that means trading Jevon Carter and a pick for Landry, then you do it. If that means trading Ricky Rubio and Kelly Ourbre and a pick and 2 other players for Chris Paul, you do it.

What this all tells me is that James Jones doesn't see Deandre Ayton as the 1st or 2nd best player on this team in the next 3-5 years. I don't blame him for that thought.