Is KD coming to the Suns?

[Indy]

And last summer he kept saying there was nothing to worry about with Ayton, that a deal would definitely get done. Then it turns out, there were never even any real negotiations.

Well that's not true, Ayton just wanted more than what was offered.

There was never an offer, according to Ayton’s agent. And I was using James Jones’ words: “We didn't have real negotiations” (https://theathletic.com/2899094/2021/10 ... otiations/)

You can't "negotiate" when one side says we will take nothing less than the max contract on max years. Jones said he was happy to offer max dollars at 4 years. Ayton's camp wouldn't listen.

[TOO]

And last summer he kept saying there was nothing to worry about with Ayton, that a deal would definitely get done. Then it turns out, there were never even any real negotiations.

Well that's not true, Ayton just wanted more than what was offered.

There was never an offer, according to Ayton’s agent. And I was using James Jones’ words: “We didn't have real negotiations” (https://theathletic.com/2899094/2021/10 ... otiations/)

Can't negotiate when one side isn't willing to negotiate.

[JeremyG]

And last summer he kept saying there was nothing to worry about with Ayton, that a deal would definitely get done. Then it turns out, there were never even any real negotiations.

Well that's not true, Ayton just wanted more than what was offered.

There was never an offer, according to Ayton’s agent. And I was using James Jones’ words: “We didn't have real negotiations” (https://theathletic.com/2899094/2021/10 ... otiations/)

You can't "negotiate" when one side says we will take nothing less than the max contract on max years. Jones said he was happy to offer max dollars at 4 years. Ayton's camp wouldn't listen.

He didn't say he was "happy to offer." The fact that the idea of a 3 or 4 year max was floated would be about the most you can decipher from the quotes.

Anyway, I didn't mean to turn this into another Ayton debate. I was just pointing out that Flex's report last summer was not based in reality.

[Indy]

And last summer he kept saying there was nothing to worry about with Ayton, that a deal would definitely get done. Then it turns out, there were never even any real negotiations.

Well that's not true, Ayton just wanted more than what was offered.

There was never an offer, according to Ayton’s agent. And I was using James Jones’ words: “We didn't have real negotiations” (https://theathletic.com/2899094/2021/10 ... otiations/)

You can't "negotiate" when one side says we will take nothing less than the max contract on max years. Jones said he was happy to offer max dollars at 4 years. Ayton's camp wouldn't listen.

He didn't say he was "happy to offer." The fact that the idea of a 3 or 4 year max was floated would be about the most you can decipher from the quotes.

Anyway, I didn't mean to turn this into another Ayton debate. I was just pointing out that Flex's report last summer was not based in reality.

Which part was not based in reality?

[JeremyG]

Well that's not true, Ayton just wanted more than what was offered.

There was never an offer, according to Ayton’s agent. And I was using James Jones’ words: “We didn't have real negotiations” (https://theathletic.com/2899094/2021/10 ... otiations/)

You can't "negotiate" when one side says we will take nothing less than the max contract on max years. Jones said he was happy to offer max dollars at 4 years. Ayton's camp wouldn't listen.

He didn't say he was "happy to offer." The fact that the idea of a 3 or 4 year max was floated would be about the most you can decipher from the quotes.

Anyway, I didn't mean to turn this into another Ayton debate. I was just pointing out that Flex's report last summer was not based in reality.

Which part was not based in reality?

When he said that there was nothing to worry about with Ayton and that a deal was a foregone conclusion.

[Indy]

If his source was from the Suns side (if there is an actual source with knowledge) it was probably related to Jones' willingness to give him max dollars for 4 years.

[TOO]

The only person not based in reality is Ayton.

[Mori Chu]

My understanding was that James Jones and the FO heard that Ayton and his agent wanted a 5-year full max, designated rookie max deal. And they weren't willing to pay that, and so they made no counter offer. You could argue that Ayton/agent might have used strong words such as, "This is the only offer we'll take," or "no 4-year max," or "nothing less than the max." But as far as I can tell, Jones did not attempt to negotiate further or present an actual counteroffer. I don't think any 4-year max was ever offered by Jones to Ayton. He basically just stopped talking to them.

It seems like a mixed-blame situation to me. The way negotiations generally work is that one side makes an offer, then the other side responds with a counteroffer, and so on until you have a deal or have to walk away. If one side makes an offer and the other side completely ceases all conversation, that is typically because the initial offer is so far off, so offensive, that you consider it fruitless to even have a conversation.

I don't know what Ayton's agent said to James Jones or vice versa. But all I can say is, if JJ and the Suns want to claim that they traded DA because he insisted on the 5-year max, I don't really buy it. Right now, July 13 2022, they could offer Ayton a 4-year max if they wanted. It's better than Ayton will probably get from any other team. But they aren't doing that, because the real truth is that they don't want to keep Ayton here. Maybe they'd keep him for some modest salary, but not at any kind of max or anywhere close to that. But they don't want to say that, so they are making it about 5 years and about an inflexible player and agent.

[Split T]

James Jones said they wanted to talk about a 3 or 4 year max and were told it was 5 year max or nothing.

[The Bobster]

My understanding was that James Jones and the FO heard that Ayton and his agent wanted a 5-year full max, designated rookie max deal. And they weren't willing to pay that, and so they made no counter offer. You could argue that Ayton/agent might have used strong words such as, "This is the only offer we'll take," or "no 4-year max," or "nothing less than the max." But as far as I can tell, Jones did not attempt to negotiate further or present an actual counteroffer. I don't think any 4-year max was ever offered by Jones to Ayton. He basically just stopped talking to them.

It seems like a mixed-blame situation to me. The way negotiations generally work is that one side makes an offer, then the other side responds with a counteroffer, and so on until you have a deal or have to walk away. If one side makes an offer and the other side completely ceases all conversation, that is typically because the initial offer is so far off, so offensive, that you consider it fruitless to even have a conversation.

I don't know what Ayton's agent said to James Jones or vice versa. But all I can say is, if JJ and the Suns want to claim that they traded DA because he insisted on the 5-year max, I don't really buy it. Right now, July 13 2022, they could offer Ayton a 4-year max if they wanted. It's better than Ayton will probably get from any other team. But they aren't doing that, because the real truth is that they don't want to keep Ayton here. Maybe they'd keep him for some modest salary, but not at any kind of max or anywhere close to that. But they don't want to say that, so they are making it about 5 years and about an inflexible player and agent.

I think this is probably pretty close to the truth. We don't know there exact reasons why they only wanted to go four years (but we can assume it was due to his inconsistency), but I don't think the Suns handled it very well. Ayton certainly isn't the first player to request a contract above what the team is willing to pay, and to some of us this is the Joe Johnson situation all over again.

[Cap]

I think this is probably pretty close to the truth. We don't know there exact reasons why they only wanted to go four years (but we can assume it was due to his inconsistency), but I don't think the Suns handled it very well. Ayton certainly isn't the first player to request a contract above what the team is willing to pay, and to some of us this is the Joe Johnson situation all over again.

JJ wasn’t demanding anywhere near max, and ended up being worth (and getting) max. Ayton is demanding max and isn’t likely to be worth max, so it’s a very different situation.

[Superbone]

This is fun. I could do this forever.

[The Bobster]

I think this is probably pretty close to the truth. We don't know there exact reasons why they only wanted to go four years (but we can assume it was due to his inconsistency), but I don't think the Suns handled it very well. Ayton certainly isn't the first player to request a contract above what the team is willing to pay, and to some of us this is the Joe Johnson situation all over again.

JJ wasn’t demanding anywhere near max, and ended up being worth (and getting) max. Ayton is demanding max and isn’t likely to be worth max, so it’s a very different situation.

I'm referring to them being likely to trade him for lesser talent.

[JeremyG]

My understanding was that James Jones and the FO heard that Ayton and his agent wanted a 5-year full max, designated rookie max deal. And they weren't willing to pay that, and so they made no counter offer. You could argue that Ayton/agent might have used strong words such as, "This is the only offer we'll take," or "no 4-year max," or "nothing less than the max." But as far as I can tell, Jones did not attempt to negotiate further or present an actual counteroffer. I don't think any 4-year max was ever offered by Jones to Ayton. He basically just stopped talking to them.

It seems like a mixed-blame situation to me. The way negotiations generally work is that one side makes an offer, then the other side responds with a counteroffer, and so on until you have a deal or have to walk away. If one side makes an offer and the other side completely ceases all conversation, that is typically because the initial offer is so far off, so offensive, that you consider it fruitless to even have a conversation.

I don't know what Ayton's agent said to James Jones or vice versa. But all I can say is, if JJ and the Suns want to claim that they traded DA because he insisted on the 5-year max, I don't really buy it. Right now, July 13 2022, they could offer Ayton a 4-year max if they wanted. It's better than Ayton will probably get from any other team. But they aren't doing that, because the real truth is that they don't want to keep Ayton here. Maybe they'd keep him for some modest salary, but not at any kind of max or anywhere close to that. But they don't want to say that, so they are making it about 5 years and about an inflexible player and agent.

Exactly, it's completely disingenuous for them to say they were willing to give him a 4 year max. Then where's the offer of 4/140 right now that only the Suns can give him? That's more than he can get from any other team. He would take it right now, and you don't have to worry about RFA or offer sheets or anything.

The truth is, they don't really want him.

[Split T]

Is it possible that they changed their mind? That they would have signed him to the 4 year max last year, but now don’t want to? That seems perfectly reasonable to me.

[JeremyG]

Is it possible that they changed their mind? That they would have signed him to the 4 year max last year, but now don’t want to? That seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Then Jones shouldn't say things like, "He had an amazing year. He's an important part of what we do. He's all about winning like we are. And we want to keep the team together."

[Cap]

I think this is probably pretty close to the truth. We don't know there exact reasons why they only wanted to go four years (but we can assume it was due to his inconsistency), but I don't think the Suns handled it very well. Ayton certainly isn't the first player to request a contract above what the team is willing to pay, and to some of us this is the Joe Johnson situation all over again.

JJ wasn’t demanding anywhere near max, and ended up being worth (and getting) max. Ayton is demanding max and isn’t likely to be worth max, so it’s a very different situation.

I'm referring to them being likely to trade him for lesser talent.

Right. Why bother complaining about what they have actually done, when you can complain about what you predict they’re going to do? Speculative complaints are the best, because they are by definition unfalsifiable.

[Split T]

Is it possible that they changed their mind? That they would have signed him to the 4 year max last year, but now don’t want to? That seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Then Jones shouldn't say things like, "He had an amazing year. He's an important part of what we do. He's all about winning like we are. And we want to keep the team together."

Huh? You think he should say, we don’t really want him back? That would kill any leverage we have. JJ should absolutely talk like we want him back, regardless of what he really thinks.

I’d also say that there’s nothing in that JJ quote you wrote that says he has to want him at the max. That could very well be true that they want to keep the team together, they just want to do it at 24 million a year, not 30+.

[Split T]

I think this is probably pretty close to the truth. We don't know there exact reasons why they only wanted to go four years (but we can assume it was due to his inconsistency), but I don't think the Suns handled it very well. Ayton certainly isn't the first player to request a contract above what the team is willing to pay, and to some of us this is the Joe Johnson situation all over again.

JJ wasn’t demanding anywhere near max, and ended up being worth (and getting) max. Ayton is demanding max and isn’t likely to be worth max, so it’s a very different situation.

I'm referring to them being likely to trade him for lesser talent.

Right. Why bother complaining about what they have actually done, when you can complain about what you predict they’re going to do? Speculative complaints are the best, because they are by definition unfalsifiable.

Wish I could like this twice…I’ve seen way too much complaining about what people think is gonna happen. I just don’t get that at all.

[Mori Chu]

Suns need to watch out for NYK here. They may be able to make Utah an offer that is more appealing to them than an Ayton-based 3-team trade with us and BKN. Utah has no particular incentive to help the Suns, a conference rival, become a juggernaut for years to come. We would probably have to dump a bunch of draft picks to them along with Ayton to make our deal better than NYK's. But then BKN also needs a bunch of picks to be willing to part with KD. You can only trade up to 5 future 1st rounders (you can't trade draft assets that are more than a decade away), plus pick-swaps, so I just don't think there are enough Suns draft assets to bribe both of these teams into giving us the lopsided deal we seem to want.