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Re: Deandre Ayton's future with the Suns?
Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2022 4:15 pm
by JeremyG
Indy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 11, 2022 11:10 am
What I am saying is that replacing KD's salary is not the difference. It is giving Ayton a +20M raise. Raising our salary by +20M even if we replace everyone else in our top 8 with minimum salary g-leaguers or old vets looking to ring chase, means we are significantly over the tax. So that ~30M for Ayton now costs 45-50M. Why in the world would you pay that much for your 4th best player?
Do you still feel this way? Should we just say no to KD if Brooklyn wants to give him to us?
Re: Deandre Ayton's future with the Suns?
Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2022 4:27 pm
by Indy
JeremyG wrote: ↑Sat Jul 16, 2022 4:15 pm
Indy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 11, 2022 11:10 am
What I am saying is that replacing KD's salary is not the difference. It is giving Ayton a +20M raise. Raising our salary by +20M even if we replace everyone else in our top 8 with minimum salary g-leaguers or old vets looking to ring chase, means we are significantly over the tax. So that ~30M for Ayton now costs 45-50M. Why in the world would you pay that much for your 4th best player?
Do you still feel this way? Should we just say no to KD if Brooklyn wants to give him to us?
I think it is poor asset management to pay your 4th best player a max contract unless he is a top 20-30 player in the league. And despite what Gambo says, I don't believe for a minute that Robert Sarver has signed off on paying close to 100M in taxes as he reported. So it means something else is going to happen. I am hoping that something else is a new owner, but it could be much worse (like KT-and-2-first-round-picks for cash bad).
Re: Deandre Ayton's future with the Suns?
Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2022 9:44 pm
by JeremyG
Indy wrote: ↑Sat Jul 16, 2022 4:27 pm
JeremyG wrote: ↑Sat Jul 16, 2022 4:15 pm
Indy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 11, 2022 11:10 am
What I am saying is that replacing KD's salary is not the difference. It is giving Ayton a +20M raise. Raising our salary by +20M even if we replace everyone else in our top 8 with minimum salary g-leaguers or old vets looking to ring chase, means we are significantly over the tax. So that ~30M for Ayton now costs 45-50M. Why in the world would you pay that much for your 4th best player?
Do you still feel this way? Should we just say no to KD if Brooklyn wants to give him to us?
I think it is poor asset management to pay your 4th best player a max contract unless he is a top 20-30 player in the league. And despite what Gambo says, I don't believe for a minute that Robert Sarver has signed off on paying close to 100M in taxes as he reported. So it means something else is going to happen. I am hoping that something else is a new owner, but it could be much worse (like KT-and-2-first-round-picks for cash bad).
Well then sign me up for poor asset management and KD and a championship.
Re: Deandre Ayton's future with the Suns?
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2022 6:39 am
by TOO
JeremyG wrote: ↑Sat Jul 16, 2022 9:44 pm
Indy wrote: ↑Sat Jul 16, 2022 4:27 pm
JeremyG wrote: ↑Sat Jul 16, 2022 4:15 pm
Indy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 11, 2022 11:10 am
What I am saying is that replacing KD's salary is not the difference. It is giving Ayton a +20M raise. Raising our salary by +20M even if we replace everyone else in our top 8 with minimum salary g-leaguers or old vets looking to ring chase, means we are significantly over the tax. So that ~30M for Ayton now costs 45-50M. Why in the world would you pay that much for your 4th best player?
Do you still feel this way? Should we just say no to KD if Brooklyn wants to give him to us?
I think it is poor asset management to pay your 4th best player a max contract unless he is a top 20-30 player in the league. And despite what Gambo says, I don't believe for a minute that Robert Sarver has signed off on paying close to 100M in taxes as he reported. So it means something else is going to happen. I am hoping that something else is a new owner, but it could be much worse (like KT-and-2-first-round-picks for cash bad).
Well then sign me up for poor asset management and KD and a championship.
I'd give Ayton a 10yr max contact if it meant just one title.
Re: Deandre Ayton's future with the Suns?
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2022 9:13 am
by Indy
same
Re: Deandre Ayton's future with the Suns?
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2022 9:44 am
by JeremyG
Btw, even if KD is on the team, I don't think Ayton will be our 4th best player. I think he would be our 3rd best player, and could also be a top 20-30 player in the league (All-Star).
Re: Deandre Ayton's future with the Suns?
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2022 9:56 am
by JeremyG
When Ayton played 34 or more minutes last season:
20.7 ppg
11.5 rpg
Suns record: 9-1
And in the playoffs:
22.5 ppg
10.5 rpg
Suns record: 4-0
Re: Deandre Ayton's future with the Suns?
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2022 10:10 am
by specialsauce
JeremyG wrote: ↑Sun Jul 17, 2022 9:44 am
Btw, even if KD is on the team, I don't think Ayton will be our 4th best player. I think he would be our 3rd best player, and could also be a top 20-30 player in the league (All-Star).
I’m shocked!
Re: Deandre Ayton's future with the Suns?
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2022 10:22 am
by Indy
JeremyG wrote: ↑Sun Jul 17, 2022 9:56 am
When Ayton played 34 or more minutes last season:
20.7 ppg
11.5 rpg
Suns record: 9-1
And in the playoffs:
22.5 ppg
10.5 rpg
Suns record: 4-0
Out of an 82 game season, Ayton could only get 34 minutes 10 times? And you think he is a 1st round pick in a league-wide redraft?
And I just checked and Ayton actually had 11 and we were 9-2.
Mikal, Paul and Book all had over 30 of those games. CamJ and Crowder almost had 11.
Re: Deandre Ayton's future with the Suns?
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2022 10:52 am
by The Bobster
Indy wrote: ↑Sun Jul 17, 2022 10:22 am
JeremyG wrote: ↑Sun Jul 17, 2022 9:56 am
When Ayton played 34 or more minutes last season:
20.7 ppg
11.5 rpg
Suns record: 9-1
And in the playoffs:
22.5 ppg
10.5 rpg
Suns record: 4-0
Out of an 82 game season, Ayton could only get 34 minutes 10 times? And you think he is a 1st round pick in a league-wide redraft?
And I just checked and Ayton actually had 11 and we were 9-2.
Mikal, Paul and Book all had over 30 of those games. CamJ and Crowder almost had 11.
Monty was always trying to get minutes in at center for McGee and Kaminsky/Biyombo. At forward there wasn't really anybody dependable coming off the bench except for Johnson (and eventually Craig). He didn't trust Smith apparently, and Nader didn't deserve rotation minutes. Same at guard - Paul and Booker didn;t have any real dependable reserves. They had Shamet, Payne, and eventually, Holiday.
Re: Deandre Ayton's future with the Suns?
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2022 11:03 am
by Split T
But Ayton also probably didn’t have the stamina to play big minutes after only getting 2 hours of sleep
Re: Deandre Ayton's future with the Suns?
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2022 11:04 am
by Superbone
I dig your new avatar, TOO.
Re: Deandre Ayton's future with the Suns?
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2022 12:11 pm
by JeremyG
Indy wrote: ↑Sun Jul 17, 2022 10:22 am
JeremyG wrote: ↑Sun Jul 17, 2022 9:56 am
When Ayton played 34 or more minutes last season:
20.7 ppg
11.5 rpg
Suns record: 9-1
And in the playoffs:
22.5 ppg
10.5 rpg
Suns record: 4-0
Out of an 82 game season, Ayton could only get 34 minutes 10 times? And you think he is a 1st round pick in a league-wide redraft?
And I just checked and Ayton actually had 11 and we were 9-2.
Mikal, Paul and Book all had over 30 of those games. CamJ and Crowder almost had 11.
That says way more about Monty than it does Ayton. Ayton does not choose his minutes.
You must have included his 33:45 game and I did not.
You see above what happens when Monty plays him 34 minutes or more. Monty refused to play him enough.
Re: Deandre Ayton's future with the Suns?
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2022 1:46 pm
by Shabazz
Monty Williams’ objectives, ranked:
1. Make DA look bad
2. Win championship
Re: Deandre Ayton's future with the Suns?
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2022 3:27 pm
by JeremyG
I guess so, since playing him more and utilizing him more would have given us our best shot at winning a championship.
Re: Deandre Ayton's future with the Suns?
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2022 5:50 pm
by Indy
JeremyG wrote: ↑Sun Jul 17, 2022 3:27 pm
I guess so, since playing him more and utilizing him more would have given us our best shot at winning a championship.
I am not sure you noticed how quickly he tired and became less engaged. It is plainly visible. He needs short bursts of minutes to be highly effective.
Monty isn't going to not play our best center to make our team worse. That is just silly talk.
Re: Deandre Ayton's future with the Suns?
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2022 9:09 pm
by JeremyG
Indy wrote: ↑Sun Jul 17, 2022 5:50 pm
JeremyG wrote: ↑Sun Jul 17, 2022 3:27 pm
I guess so, since playing him more and utilizing him more would have given us our best shot at winning a championship.
I am not sure you noticed how quickly he tired and became less engaged. It is plainly visible. He needs short bursts of minutes to be highly effective.
Monty isn't going to not play our best center to make our team worse. That is just silly talk.
I've seen him fight through the fatigue and still be very impactful. He played very heavy minutes in the 2021 playoffs, sometimes well over 40. Why did he play 30.5 instead of 36.4 in the 2022 playoffs?
If you think he gets too tired to be "highly effective" playing more minutes, then why are his stats and the Suns record so good when he plays more minutes?
Re: Deandre Ayton's future with the Suns?
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2022 8:29 am
by Indy
JeremyG wrote: ↑Sun Jul 17, 2022 9:09 pm
Indy wrote: ↑Sun Jul 17, 2022 5:50 pm
JeremyG wrote: ↑Sun Jul 17, 2022 3:27 pm
I guess so, since playing him more and utilizing him more would have given us our best shot at winning a championship.
I am not sure you noticed how quickly he tired and became less engaged. It is plainly visible. He needs short bursts of minutes to be highly effective.
Monty isn't going to not play our best center to make our team worse. That is just silly talk.
I've seen him fight through the fatigue and still be very impactful. He played very heavy minutes in the 2021 playoffs, sometimes well over 40. Why did he play 30.5 instead of 36.4 in the 2022 playoffs?
If you think he gets too tired to be "highly effective" playing more minutes, then why are his stats and the Suns record so good when he plays more minutes?
It almost never happens. Like 10% of the time. Why is that? You seem to think it is because Monty wants to win at all costs EXCEPT the cost of playing Ayton. That seems like you are looking at it with some pretty shit-colored lenses.
So maybe, if you look at it objectively, when Ayton is well-reseted and motivated and engaged, he gets more playing time. And of course we are a better team with a well-rested, motivated, and engaged Ayton.
Re: Deandre Ayton's future with the Suns?
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2022 8:44 am
by JeremyG
Indy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 18, 2022 8:29 am
JeremyG wrote: ↑Sun Jul 17, 2022 9:09 pm
Indy wrote: ↑Sun Jul 17, 2022 5:50 pm
JeremyG wrote: ↑Sun Jul 17, 2022 3:27 pm
I guess so, since playing him more and utilizing him more would have given us our best shot at winning a championship.
I am not sure you noticed how quickly he tired and became less engaged. It is plainly visible. He needs short bursts of minutes to be highly effective.
Monty isn't going to not play our best center to make our team worse. That is just silly talk.
I've seen him fight through the fatigue and still be very impactful. He played very heavy minutes in the 2021 playoffs, sometimes well over 40. Why did he play 30.5 instead of 36.4 in the 2022 playoffs?
If you think he gets too tired to be "highly effective" playing more minutes, then why are his stats and the Suns record so good when he plays more minutes?
It almost never happens. Like 10% of the time. Why is that? You seem to think it is because Monty wants to win at all costs EXCEPT the cost of playing Ayton. That seems like you are looking at it with some pretty shit-colored lenses.
So maybe, if you look at it objectively, when Ayton is well-reseted and motivated and engaged, he gets more playing time. And of course we are a better team with a well-rested, motivated, and engaged Ayton.
I've seen many times when Ayton is playing great, and Monty rests him way too early. I've also seen times when he looks gassed, but Monty plays him anyway in a close game and he's come up clutch in the 4th quarter (or even OT) on both ends to help us win. Tired Ayton is still better than no Ayton.
Re: Deandre Ayton's future with the Suns?
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2022 9:01 am
by Indy
I have definitely seen gassed Ayton play well in spots, but have seen disengaged Ayton negatively impact us way too often.