Game Day: Suns (7-9) @ Raptors (11-6), Sun 11/29/15

[Indy]

you have a closed mind to Tucker.

I defend him more than most here. I just think he is a net nothing this season, and he keeps proving me right. At least Bledsoe's ridiculous TOs are (usually) more than balanced out on his defense, rebounding, and scoring.

Quick question: was that ORB and putback off an air ball? Wouldn't it have to be with only seconds left on the shot clock? I don't remember an air ball from Keef.

I wasn't talking about his contribution for the season. I was talking about the three big plays down the stretch in this game. Yes, the ORB putback was off an air ball. It was a tough hook over his head for the basket.

I guess we will just disagree there. Again, I think Tucker is a net 'meh' on the team. Sure, you can find small segments of games where he is a net positive, but that isn't a fair way to look at his contributions. He played half the game and only got 5 boards and took 4 shots.

[djy2j]

Our team is great except for the frontcourt, and sometimes the backcourt.

Pretty much the story of the season.

. I like Leuer's energy off the bench, but I don't think he's a starter.

He looked like a starting PF tonight. He was Googs out there, man. Only with a little more range. He was making the right pass, rebounding, defending, driving, dunking, hitting 3's. What more would you want out of your starting PF?

He absolutely should be starting for THIS team. Why on God's green earth Morris is still starting I have no idea. The Kink of Clank should be riding the pine until he fixes the hitch in his shot, or learns how to defend, or rebound.

[Superbone]

you have a closed mind to Tucker.

I defend him more than most here. I just think he is a net nothing this season, and he keeps proving me right. At least Bledsoe's ridiculous TOs are (usually) more than balanced out on his defense, rebounding, and scoring.

Quick question: was that ORB and putback off an air ball? Wouldn't it have to be with only seconds left on the shot clock? I don't remember an air ball from Keef.

I wasn't talking about his contribution for the season. I was talking about the three big plays down the stretch in this game. Yes, the ORB putback was off an air ball. It was a tough hook over his head for the basket.

I guess we will just disagree there. Again, I think Tucker is a net 'meh' on the team. Sure, you can find small segments of games where he is a net positive, but that isn't a fair way to look at his contributions. He played half the game and only got 5 boards and took 4 shots.

I think it's more of a misunderstanding than a disagreement. My comment was directed at the last four minutes of the game. Not the entirety of the game or the entirety of the season.

[Robot]

Can we please change this team to better reflect what I want?

[ REDACTED ]

- R

[Indy]

you have a closed mind to Tucker.

I defend him more than most here. I just think he is a net nothing this season, and he keeps proving me right. At least Bledsoe's ridiculous TOs are (usually) more than balanced out on his defense, rebounding, and scoring.

Quick question: was that ORB and putback off an air ball? Wouldn't it have to be with only seconds left on the shot clock? I don't remember an air ball from Keef.

I wasn't talking about his contribution for the season. I was talking about the three big plays down the stretch in this game. Yes, the ORB putback was off an air ball. It was a tough hook over his head for the basket.

I guess we will just disagree there. Again, I think Tucker is a net 'meh' on the team. Sure, you can find small segments of games where he is a net positive, but that isn't a fair way to look at his contributions. He played half the game and only got 5 boards and took 4 shots.

I think it's more of a misunderstanding than a disagreement. My comment was directed at the last four minutes of the game. Not the entirety of the game or the entirety of the season.

If that is the case, then let's just look at the last 2 minutes of the game so we can agree. Then we get to ignore the missed FT and the TO in the paint, and say that for the last two minutes of the game, Tucker was a net positive.

[Superbone]

If that is the case, then let's just look at the last 2 minutes of the game so we can agree. Then we get to ignore the missed FT and the TO in the paint, and say that for the last two minutes of the game, Tucker was a net positive.

Let's compromise and start at the 3:20 mark. (One missed FT isn't so bad.)

Tucker Rebound (Off:0 Def:3) 03:20
Tucker Free Throw 2 of 2 (3 PTS) 03:12 [PHX 96-95]
Joseph Turnover : Bad Pass (1 TO) Steal:Tucker (1 ST) 02:03
Tucker Rebound (Off:1 Def:3) 01:04
Tucker Putback Layup Shot: Made (5 PTS) 01:03 [PHX 103-97]
Tucker Rebound (Off:1 Def:4) 00:49.9

[Mori Chu]

I like Tucker in general. But with Warren on the roster, the more minutes we give to Tucker, the more slowly Warren is going to develop. I want Warren getting 30+ minutes a night and Tucker getting the scraps.

[pickle]

Ok I just got a chance to finish this game and got to reading the discussion in this thread, which I think is very interesting.

It's pretty clear that we are all frustrated by the team's current position/performance, but maybe we should isolate the specific discussion about the players' values. It's one thing to compare a player to the average performance he should be putting up (Kieff), it's another to compare him to the alternatives we have on the team itself (Kieff vs. Leuer/Teletovic), and then it's yet another thing to put all the positional comparisons onto one package and put that package on the floor (PJ not a good fit because of the lack of production from other two front court positions).

Back court: I've said this before, Bledsoe is not a prototypical point guard with a passing vision, but he makes up for it with hard play. He had that offensive rebound, flying out of nowhere, on Warren's missed free throw, as well as the block on Scola. He absolutely plays hard, and I'm impressed. I like him as a player, not sure I like having him handle the ball but we are committed and that situation isn't going to change. Knight is a very cerebral player, from what I've seen, but he's too thin to play SG. When he's playing PG, he's not as strong or athletic as Bledsoe but I do think he looks to set people up a little more before looking for his own shot, which suggests to me that he's actually doing the shoot-first thing to fit his SG position. Both of these guys could try to be more careful with the ball, but given that those are their natural talents, I'd say make incremental improvements and leave it be.

Forwards: PJ Tucker can be a very useful piece on a team with lots of bombers. I can see him fitting in on the Thunder, for instance, and instantly helping that team as a more offensive capable version of Roberson. But on the Suns, a team without deep playoff hopes and with a slew of young players waiting for minutes, he does seem to be unnecessary luxury. I don't dislike him personally, as at least he is maximizing whatever talent he has; playing hard might rub off on the other players, but the net positive probably isn't enough since he clearly isn't the future of this team. I've been defending Markieff, but the recent few games I've seen, I guess I'm done with him too. We have two quality backup 4s, neither is starter material and if we insert them into the starting lineup, they would definitely get abused, but at least both make an effort and chemistry would presumably improve. But talent-wise, they are not going to help this team win more games. I'd say move Tucker to a contender to clear minutes, decide what to do with Markieff and just do it -- either to bench or move him, or maybe they've decided and we are just suffering through it, which is to stick with him (depressing). Neither Leuer nor Teletovic are starting caliber players, but we just use them to stretch the floor and enhance development for the other young players by providing better overall spacing, defense be damned.

Centers: Neither of our centers can score right now. Chandler is a weapon on the pick and roll, if only our guards knew how to run it. I like what Len put together this last game, but defensively his lateral mobility is definitely challenged, which he makes up for somewhat with his long arms. I like him and want to develop him; over the last five games, we had two where we had to face the Brow and one against Golden State's small ball, so I won't panic yet until we face more traditional lineups and we still sit Len. For this, I'd say have both guys split the center minutes down the middle, even if it's against unfavorable match ups, winning be damned, so Len can get more experience. No more two PF three guard lineups.

Bench/young guys: I would agree with popular opinion on this. Screw the playoffs, play the young players and see what we have. I do understand why we run Price, because neither of our lead guards really are PGs so when we switch it up there's some value to having a traditional PG directing traffic with the youngsters, but honestly I think Knight does an admirable job of distributing the ball (even if he's not particularly talented at this aspect of the game) when he puts his mind to it, so I'd just prefer for Hornacek to give Knight 15 mpg at PG and really scream at him to play as a PG for those 15. I don't mind the strategy where we play our reserves 20 min one game and 0 another. That basic concept is okay. I'm sure it's not ideal, but right now we do have more depth in the back court.

[pickle]

Damn I didn't realize the post was that long. Argh. I guess I am not particularly passionate about too many things in my life, but the Suns happens to be one of them.

[Ring_Wanted]

Hornacek is shooting himself and the team in the foot by playing Tucker over Warren at this point. PJ still has a place on the rotation but he needs to be brought from the bench (and if he doesn't take it, trade him). His D+R is fading and although he still has his moments, it is not enough to justify not playing a guy as efficient as Warren.

Same thing with Kieff and Leuer, but this is a much more complicated situation.

Just like last season, dec.15 can't come soon enough.

[Ring_Wanted]

Knight is the proverbial SG trapped in a PG's body. He looks too much for his own (even when he was the actual PG in Milwaukee), and he settles too often for hero shots. That's his game and the nature of said shots makes him a streaky scorer but like his fragility when penetrating, that's not really what irks me as he still is a potent shot maker.

My concern comes from his poor decision making and passing skills. His mistakes are too similar to Bledsoe's and that's a huge handicap for this team offensively, above all when the rest of the roster is unable to create on their own. Having two poor distributors means you can't use Chandler, Len, Warren and the spot up shooters up to their full potential.

Kieff was supposed to bring a little of balance here but he is not delivering one on one or as a pick and pop option (and is becoming another TO machine).

And yet Generally speaking, said offense is not the problem. It's the defense. If the defense was good we'd have an ugly but solid regular season team in our hands with the potential to become something actually relevant thanks to the disposable cap flexibility, but so far theory is not translating into facts.

1.- We can't afford Ish Smith, Steve Blake, Hinrich and the likes having outstanding games the same way these past two years PF/Cs would regularly have crazy FG% nights. It is absolutely avoidable and right there that's the difference from being 8-9 to 12-5.

2.- The rim protectors are being taken out of the game and teams are scoring a brutal % from all ranges. Particularly worrying is that despite having two towers, we are the second worst team at defending FGs 15 feet and closer. Overall, only Houston and Sacramento are defending any worse than us.

I still want to see less Kieff, more Leuer and some PJ at PF, and a bit of twin towers when Chandler gets back. Try something different because we are not stopping anyone and the attack is too inconsistent to sustain wins.

[Indy]

Damn I didn't realize the post was that long. Argh. I guess I am not particularly passionate about too many things in my life, but the Suns happens to be one of them.

It wasn't too long. Great post.

[Indy]

Hornacek is shooting himself and the team in the foot by playing Tucker over Warren at this point. PJ still has a place on the rotation but he needs to be brought from the bench (and if he doesn't take it, trade him). His D+R is fading and although he still has his moments, it is not enough to justify not playing a guy as efficient as Warren.

Same thing with Kieff and Leuer, but this is a much more complicated situation.

Just like last season, dec.15 can't come soon enough.

Exactly. I am not hating on Tucker; he just isn't worth the minutes he is given with Warren being so damn efficient.

[Indy]

1.- We can't afford Ish Smith, Steve Blake, Hinrich and the likes having outstanding games the same way these past two years PF/Cs would regularly have crazy FG% nights. It is absolutely avoidable and right there that's the difference from being 8-9 to 12-5.

2.- The rim protectors are being taken out of the game and teams are scoring a brutal % from all ranges. Particularly worrying is that despite having two towers, we are the second worst team at defending FGs 15 feet and closer. Overall, only Houston and Sacramento are defending any worse than us.

To me, these seem very inter-related. When you have a PF like Keef just standing around, once your PG/SG blows by Knight or Bledsoe (which happens a lot*), you have your PF just getting in the way, and then have to pull your C over to try and cover, leaving both the opposing C and PF available for an easy bucket. And when you pull Tyson/Len and Keef, Lueur and Tele are just not capable as rim defenders.

*I don't get why this seems to happen so much. Both guys are very fast, and Bledsoe seems to have great defensive instincts. He just seems to rely on his ability to get steals and hopefully recover from a blow by with a block at the rim too often.

[JCSunsfan]

I like Tucker in general. But with Warren on the roster, the more minutes we give to Tucker, the more slowly Warren is going to develop. I want Warren getting 30+ minutes a night and Tucker getting the scraps.

This actually might help Tucker. He gets to come in and provide defensive energy off the bench. Maybe we should move Tucker to pf. He is defendin pf's and rebounding better than Kieff right now anyway.

[Indy]

I like Tucker in general. But with Warren on the roster, the more minutes we give to Tucker, the more slowly Warren is going to develop. I want Warren getting 30+ minutes a night and Tucker getting the scraps.

This actually might help Tucker. He gets to come in and provide defensive energy off the bench. Maybe we should move Tucker to pf. He is defendin pf's and rebounding better than Kieff right now anyway.

I think anyone on our roster would do better as a PF that Keef. Which is clearly about effort, since last year he was a top 10 PF, not a top 80.

[Superbone]

Kieff is tacitly screwing the Suns and I wish the Suns would do something about it but it is a slippery slope. If we stop playing him, will we get any value for him? I argue that it's better than what's going on now. His value is only slipping the more we let him coast in the starting lineup. He is hurting more than he is helping (obviously).

[Shabazz]

I haven't had time to listen to any of the weekly McDonough or Hornacek interviews, but have they addresses Kieff's crapping the bed at all? We're almost done with 25% of the season. How much longer can we keep him in the starting lineup?

[Indy]

That is why we should have dumped him immediately, even if it was for half his value. Right now he is just screwing us (fans especially) while the org is trying desperately to get something for him by playing him.

[Indy]

I haven't had time to listen to any of the weekly McDonough or Hornacek interviews, but have they addresses Kieff's crapping the bed at all? We're almost done with 25% of the season. How much longer can we keep him in the starting lineup?

I stopped listening to those years ago since it just seems like a pr thing...