Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:36 pm
I think it would mean Mikal and Cam Johnson having to sign elsewhere.
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:41 pm
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:43 pm
If he signs an offer sheet we just match it and trade him later. Or just keep him at the 30-32 million a year contract that is the most he can sign with another team. The suns have all the leverage here. All Ayton has is signing the QO and I very much doubt he does that.
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:43 pm
"run it back" is not usually successful for a team that dropped 4 straight finals games.
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:44 pm
No way his agent lets him do thatSplit T wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:43 pmIf he signs an offer sheet we just match it and trade him later. Or just keep him at the 30-32 million a year contract that is the most he can sign with another team. The suns have all the leverage here. All Ayton has is signing the QO and I very much doubt he does that.
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:56 pm
A trade takes an exchange of players from both teams. What makes you think the Spurs want an injured Saric and a very unproven Smith?
Just because we want Young doesn’t mean the Spurs want what we have to offer.
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2021 4:31 pm
Yeah, I don't agree with most of these complaints. No GM is just going to give away a valuable player, especially in the summer. The only time we really see it happen is midseason when they're trying to "do right" by a veteran player.
As for the offseason moves, I think Shamet and McGee are significant upgrades to the bench rotation. And trying to sign or trade for a better player (DeRozan, for example) would've come at the expense of Mikal or Cam Johnson, which I don't think most Suns fans would be really happy about.
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2021 4:45 pm
They wouldn't be able to trade him until midseason the next season. You're dealing in technicalites instead of real-world life. If he wants out, they aren't going to keep him on the roster. See: almost every other similar situation in NBA history.Split T wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:43 pmIf he signs an offer sheet we just match it and trade him later. Or just keep him at the 30-32 million a year contract that is the most he can sign with another team. The suns have all the leverage here. All Ayton has is signing the QO and I very much doubt he does that.
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2021 4:48 pm
Bridges was supposed to be locked up before we even find out if Ayton becomes eligible for the $40M.Indy wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:36 pmI think it would mean Mikal and Cam Johnson having to sign elsewhere.
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2021 5:25 pm
I'm not saying the Spurs should make that trade. I'm saying if we don't convince them to, we basically opted for "running it back" when we could have done so much more. We lost Saric, Craig, Carter and a 1st and replaced that with Javale and Shamet. That may be an upgrade in the backcourt but feels like a downgrade in the frontcourt. And considering we had a full MLE, BAE and maybe a Saric DPE and all we used was half the MLE, it feels like a wasted opportunity to me. We won't have those tools next summer. But, yay, Frank is back in a Super-Pat-Burke role.Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 4:31 pmYeah, I don't agree with most of these complaints. No GM is just going to give away a valuable player, especially in the summer. The only time we really see it happen is midseason when they're trying to "do right" by a veteran player.
As for the offseason moves, I think Shamet and McGee are significant upgrades to the bench rotation. And trying to sign or trade for a better player (DeRozan, for example) would've come at the expense of Mikal or Cam Johnson, which I don't think most Suns fans would be really happy about.
They're also good contract sizes to have for trade matching purposes. If a good player becomes available and we want to get in on the bidding, it will be hard to make that work.
I'm still keeping an open mind and hope that they're saving the other half of the MLE and/or the BAE for the buyout market.
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2021 5:26 pm
A quick search tells me Zach LaVine, Roy Hibbert, Eric Gordon, Gordon Hayward, Jeff Teague, and Nic Batum all signed offer sheets elsewhere and were matched. There’s absolutely no way the Suns wouldn’t match any offer Ayton gets next summer. You’re also assuming Ayton will be pissed about how things are going and want out when there’s no indication from him that he’s even upset.JeremyG wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 4:45 pmThey wouldn't be able to trade him until midseason the next season. You're dealing in technicalites instead of real-world life. If he wants out, they aren't going to keep him on the roster. See: almost every other similar situation in NBA history.Split T wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:43 pmIf he signs an offer sheet we just match it and trade him later. Or just keep him at the 30-32 million a year contract that is the most he can sign with another team. The suns have all the leverage here. All Ayton has is signing the QO and I very much doubt he does that.
There’s still 2 weeks left anyways, let’s see what happens before we get too crazy about the fallout. I still expect a deal will be reached, just don’t think it’s a must. Bridges though is who we absolutely need to lock up. He’ll only get more expensive.
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2021 5:54 pm
Came to address the Ayton non-extention. I actually am not as furious as some on Twitter. IF any of it's true I actually don't mind the strategy. Ayton has a ton of potential that hasn't quite all been unlocked yet. We've never really seen Ayton play mad. At least that's how I feel. I think Jones might be using this to motivate him IF true...
I think it's too early to panic on this. Ayton is an extremely laid back dude. It would take more than MOST to make him want to leave. I'm not saying Sarver ain't capable of it but I don't think that's the direction this is heading...yet anyway. Not apologizing for Sarver. He's still a huge piece of shit but I think this will all play out to a happy ending.
As much hate as I've given Ayton, (probably still will when he deserves it) I think he's a max player. Partially because of the market but also because of potential.
Flex has been pretty spot on for the most part so I'm not worried yet but it has my attention.
I think it's too early to panic on this. Ayton is an extremely laid back dude. It would take more than MOST to make him want to leave. I'm not saying Sarver ain't capable of it but I don't think that's the direction this is heading...yet anyway. Not apologizing for Sarver. He's still a huge piece of shit but I think this will all play out to a happy ending.
As much hate as I've given Ayton, (probably still will when he deserves it) I think he's a max player. Partially because of the market but also because of potential.
Flex has been pretty spot on for the most part so I'm not worried yet but it has my attention.
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2021 6:11 pm
How many of those guys were upset about not getting a max extension and said they wanted out?Split T wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 5:26 pmA quick search tells me Zach LaVine, Roy Hibbert, Eric Gordon, Gordon Hayward, Jeff Teague, and Nic Batum all signed offer sheets elsewhere and were matched. There’s absolutely no way the Suns wouldn’t match any offer Ayton gets next summer. You’re also assuming Ayton will be pissed about how things are going and want out when there’s no indication from him that he’s even upset.JeremyG wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 4:45 pmThey wouldn't be able to trade him until midseason the next season. You're dealing in technicalites instead of real-world life. If he wants out, they aren't going to keep him on the roster. See: almost every other similar situation in NBA history.Split T wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:43 pmIf he signs an offer sheet we just match it and trade him later. Or just keep him at the 30-32 million a year contract that is the most he can sign with another team. The suns have all the leverage here. All Ayton has is signing the QO and I very much doubt he does that.
There’s still 2 weeks left anyways, let’s see what happens before we get too crazy about the fallout. I still expect a deal will be reached, just don’t think it’s a must. Bridges though is who we absolutely need to lock up. He’ll only get more expensive.
I think Ayton's side leaking things indicates he is upset, and certainly will be if the Suns don't offer the max extension.
From Monty's remark it seems that they take the leak as an unfortunate action that they have been proud to prevent in recent years. So things must be souring between the parties for this to happen.
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2021 6:13 pm
I don't think we can put Saric with the group of guys lost this offseason. He's injured and has significantly less value because of it. So from a transactional point, they've replaced Craig, Carter, and the 29th pick with Shamet and McGee. We don't know if it'll work out, but they need to find out if Jalen Smith can play a role, so I'd also put him in the "additions" box for this season. I think that's an upgrade overall for this season.Shabazz wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 5:25 pmWe lost Saric, Craig, Carter and a 1st and replaced that with Javale and Shamet. That may be an upgrade in the backcourt but feels like a downgrade in the frontcourt. And considering we had a full MLE, BAE and maybe a Saric DPE and all we used was half the MLE, it feels like a wasted opportunity to me. We won't have those tools next summer. But, yay, Frank is back in a Super-Pat-Burke role.
They're also good contract sizes to have for trade matching purposes. If a good player becomes available and we want to get in on the bidding, it will be hard to make that work.
I'm still keeping an open mind and hope that they're saving the other half of the MLE and/or the BAE for the buyout market.
The last part is confusing to me, maybe it's partially due to Sarver Suns PTSD. You're not satisfied with how they've used their cap space while acknowledging they have the flexibility to make a significant move during the season. There's no reason to lock into a roster during the summer or training camp. Now if the season goes by and the Suns don't maximize their chances to improve and eventually fall short of their goal, then I think we'll be in a position to be critical.
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2021 6:20 pm
All valid points.Shabazz wrote:I'm not saying the Spurs should make that trade. I'm saying if we don't convince them to, we basically opted for "running it back" when we could have done so much more. We lost Saric, Craig, Carter and a 1st and replaced that with Javale and Shamet. That may be an upgrade in the backcourt but feels like a downgrade in the frontcourt. And considering we had a full MLE, BAE and maybe a Saric DPE and all we used was half the MLE, it feels like a wasted opportunity to me. We won't have those tools next summer. But, yay, Frank is back in a Super-Pat-Burke role.Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 4:31 pmYeah, I don't agree with most of these complaints. No GM is just going to give away a valuable player, especially in the summer. The only time we really see it happen is midseason when they're trying to "do right" by a veteran player.
As for the offseason moves, I think Shamet and McGee are significant upgrades to the bench rotation. And trying to sign or trade for a better player (DeRozan, for example) would've come at the expense of Mikal or Cam Johnson, which I don't think most Suns fans would be really happy about.
They're also good contract sizes to have for trade matching purposes. If a good player becomes available and we want to get in on the bidding, it will be hard to make that work.
I'm still keeping an open mind and hope that they're saving the other half of the MLE and/or the BAE for the buyout market.
My view is we needed:
1. Size
Which we got via McGee and possibly the growth of Jalen Smith .. and Saric will be back for the playoffs.
Torrey Craig is not a big, but that was his role and it caught us out badly in the finals, so no loss there.
and..
2. Talent
Which we got in Shamet and we’ll also get via the development of two starters in Ayton, Bridges and a sixth man in Johnson.
One extra year of experience for these young guys is huge.
And people are down on Payton for whatever reason - I am a sucker for a pass first PG, especially on this team, and for a third stringer he is a steal at $2m.
Young would be nice for both size and talent but he’d possibly interrupt the continuity (chemistry) we’re getting with our starting 5 and continuity is not underrated.
Assuming Sarver doesn’t offside Bridges and Ayton in contract talks then I’m comfortable saying we’re good to go for another title run.
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2021 6:49 pm
I think you have to factor in the Saric injury when comparing our roster to last season's. It's a reality. We likely don't have him for all of next season. You're kind of playing the reverse game with your Smith argument.Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 6:13 pmI don't think we can put Saric with the group of guys lost this offseason. He's injured and has significantly less value because of it. So from a transactional point, they've replaced Craig, Carter, and the 29th pick with Shamet and McGee. We don't know if it'll work out, but they need to find out if Jalen Smith can play a role, so I'd also put him in the "additions" box for this season. I think that's an upgrade overall for this season.Shabazz wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 5:25 pmWe lost Saric, Craig, Carter and a 1st and replaced that with Javale and Shamet. That may be an upgrade in the backcourt but feels like a downgrade in the frontcourt. And considering we had a full MLE, BAE and maybe a Saric DPE and all we used was half the MLE, it feels like a wasted opportunity to me. We won't have those tools next summer. But, yay, Frank is back in a Super-Pat-Burke role.
They're also good contract sizes to have for trade matching purposes. If a good player becomes available and we want to get in on the bidding, it will be hard to make that work.
I'm still keeping an open mind and hope that they're saving the other half of the MLE and/or the BAE for the buyout market.
The last part is confusing to me, maybe it's partially due to Sarver Suns PTSD. You're not satisfied with how they've used their cap space while acknowledging they have the flexibility to make a significant move during the season. There's no reason to lock into a roster during the summer or training camp. Now if the season goes by and the Suns don't maximize their chances to improve and eventually fall short of their goal, then I think we'll be in a position to be critical.
On the second part, my preference would have been to use at least one of those tools during the offseason - when free agents are known, not speculative. Then we'd have the second available for buyout season. We're probably not going to use both in-season.
That's not certain.3rdside wrote:Which we got via McGee and possibly the growth of Jalen Smith .. and Saric will be back for the playoffs.
He was no Giannis-stopper, but he was critical in earlier rounds.Torrey Craig is not a big, but that was his role and it caught us out badly in the finals, so no loss there.
None of that development precludes using the tools that were available to us to improve our team.Which we got in Shamet and we’ll also get via the development of two starters in Ayton, Bridges and a sixth man in Johnson.
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2021 7:18 pm
I don't like how Ayton is using Oubre's agent. It worked out poorly for everyone involved.
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2021 7:26 pm
1. Saric I'd bet he will be ready but I'm not NostradamusShabazz wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 6:49 pmI think you have to factor in the Saric injury when comparing our roster to last season's. It's a reality. We likely don't have him for all of next season. You're kind of playing the reverse game with your Smith argument.Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 6:13 pmI don't think we can put Saric with the group of guys lost this offseason. He's injured and has significantly less value because of it. So from a transactional point, they've replaced Craig, Carter, and the 29th pick with Shamet and McGee. We don't know if it'll work out, but they need to find out if Jalen Smith can play a role, so I'd also put him in the "additions" box for this season. I think that's an upgrade overall for this season.Shabazz wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 5:25 pmWe lost Saric, Craig, Carter and a 1st and replaced that with Javale and Shamet. That may be an upgrade in the backcourt but feels like a downgrade in the frontcourt. And considering we had a full MLE, BAE and maybe a Saric DPE and all we used was half the MLE, it feels like a wasted opportunity to me. We won't have those tools next summer. But, yay, Frank is back in a Super-Pat-Burke role.
They're also good contract sizes to have for trade matching purposes. If a good player becomes available and we want to get in on the bidding, it will be hard to make that work.
I'm still keeping an open mind and hope that they're saving the other half of the MLE and/or the BAE for the buyout market.
The last part is confusing to me, maybe it's partially due to Sarver Suns PTSD. You're not satisfied with how they've used their cap space while acknowledging they have the flexibility to make a significant move during the season. There's no reason to lock into a roster during the summer or training camp. Now if the season goes by and the Suns don't maximize their chances to improve and eventually fall short of their goal, then I think we'll be in a position to be critical.
On the second part, my preference would have been to use at least one of those tools during the offseason - when free agents are known, not speculative. Then we'd have the second available for buyout season. We're probably not going to use both in-season.
That's not certain.3rdside wrote:Which we got via McGee and possibly the growth of Jalen Smith .. and Saric will be back for the playoffs.
He was no Giannis-stopper, but he was critical in earlier rounds.Torrey Craig is not a big, but that was his role and it caught us out badly in the finals, so no loss there.
None of that development precludes using the tools that were available to us to improve our team.Which we got in Shamet and we’ll also get via the development of two starters in Ayton, Bridges and a sixth man in Johnson.
2. Craig was inadequate for the reason that he wasn't tall enough *in the finals*; Giannis, Lopez and Fortis are huge and that was a huge part of the reason we lost.
3. Improving organically or via acquisitions are the same thing done different ways. Doing both isn't impossible but would Thadd be an absolute upgrade over Crowder especially when factoring in salaries ($3m difference), leadership (Crowder is king in the locker room), playoff experience and possible chemistry issues?
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2021 7:32 pm
Is Thad supposed to be an upgrade over Crowder, or a complement to him? Crowder isn’t involved in the trade proposal as far as I’ve heard.3rdside wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 7:26 pm1. Saric I'd bet he will be ready but I'm not NostradamusShabazz wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 6:49 pmI think you have to factor in the Saric injury when comparing our roster to last season's. It's a reality. We likely don't have him for all of next season. You're kind of playing the reverse game with your Smith argument.Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 6:13 pmI don't think we can put Saric with the group of guys lost this offseason. He's injured and has significantly less value because of it. So from a transactional point, they've replaced Craig, Carter, and the 29th pick with Shamet and McGee. We don't know if it'll work out, but they need to find out if Jalen Smith can play a role, so I'd also put him in the "additions" box for this season. I think that's an upgrade overall for this season.Shabazz wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 5:25 pmWe lost Saric, Craig, Carter and a 1st and replaced that with Javale and Shamet. That may be an upgrade in the backcourt but feels like a downgrade in the frontcourt. And considering we had a full MLE, BAE and maybe a Saric DPE and all we used was half the MLE, it feels like a wasted opportunity to me. We won't have those tools next summer. But, yay, Frank is back in a Super-Pat-Burke role.
They're also good contract sizes to have for trade matching purposes. If a good player becomes available and we want to get in on the bidding, it will be hard to make that work.
I'm still keeping an open mind and hope that they're saving the other half of the MLE and/or the BAE for the buyout market.
The last part is confusing to me, maybe it's partially due to Sarver Suns PTSD. You're not satisfied with how they've used their cap space while acknowledging they have the flexibility to make a significant move during the season. There's no reason to lock into a roster during the summer or training camp. Now if the season goes by and the Suns don't maximize their chances to improve and eventually fall short of their goal, then I think we'll be in a position to be critical.
On the second part, my preference would have been to use at least one of those tools during the offseason - when free agents are known, not speculative. Then we'd have the second available for buyout season. We're probably not going to use both in-season.
That's not certain.3rdside wrote:Which we got via McGee and possibly the growth of Jalen Smith .. and Saric will be back for the playoffs.
He was no Giannis-stopper, but he was critical in earlier rounds.Torrey Craig is not a big, but that was his role and it caught us out badly in the finals, so no loss there.
None of that development precludes using the tools that were available to us to improve our team.Which we got in Shamet and we’ll also get via the development of two starters in Ayton, Bridges and a sixth man in Johnson.
2. Craig was inadequate for the reason that he wasn't tall enough *in the finals*; Giannis, Lopez and Fortis are huge and that was a huge part of the reason we lost.
3. Improving organically or via acquisitions are the same thing done different ways. Doing both isn't impossible but would Thadd be an absolute upgrade over Crowder especially when factoring in salaries ($3m difference), leadership (Crowder is king in the locker room), playoff experience and possible chemistry issues?
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2021 7:40 pm
Of course it's a factor, but my point is that he has next to zero on-court value right now, so I don't think it's reasonable to expect him to count him as an asset. If you're saying his production/role needs to be replaced, then I'd agree, but his role is about 12mpg so they have time to find the right deal.
I don't understand what you mean by "reverse game".