Around the League: The Offseason

Discussion of the league and of our favorite team.
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Superbone
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Re: Around the League: The Offseason

Post by Superbone »

Cap wrote:By the way, I think we may be underestimating the value of Bledsoe in this trade.

Irving is the younger, better player, but the gulf isn't huge, and given the fit with Cavs (not to mention the personal relationship with LeBron), Irving-to-Bledsoe may actually be an upgrade for them, in the sense that a straight-up swap would make them a better team. Add in Warren and a pick, and it's a pretty sweet deal for a disgruntled star who has said he won't likely stay with his new team. In a "forced to trade" situation, if they make a trade that makes them better immediately and brings a #1 pick, they've done very well for themselves. If we give up any more, we got outnegotiated.

ETA: By the numbers,

Code: Select all

                       
Per 36:
                                                                                          
Player     Season  FG  FGA  FG%  3P 3PA  3P%  2P  2PA  2P%  FT FTA  FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV  PF  PTS
Bledsoe   2016-17 7.4 17.1 .434 1.7 5.1 .335 5.7 12.0 .477 6.4 7.6 .847 0.9 4.4 5.3 6.9 1.5 0.5 3.7 2.7 23.0
 Irving   2016-17 9.6 20.2 .473 2.5 6.3 .401 7.0 14.0 .505 4.2 4.7 .905 0.7 2.5 3.3 6.0 1.2 0.3 2.6 2.2 25.9


 
Advanced:
                                                                                                      
Player     PER  TS% 3PAr  FTr ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% OWS DWS  WS WS/48 OBPM DBPM BPM VORP
Bledsoe   20.5 .563 .300 .443  2.5 13.8  8.0 31.1  2.0  1.2 15.3 28.1 4.0 1.4 5.3  .118  3.7 -0.4 3.3  2.9
 Irving   23.0 .580 .311 .231  2.3  7.5  5.0 29.7  1.6  0.8 10.3 30.8 7.4 1.5 8.9  .170  4.8 -2.3 2.5  2.9
Exactly this. Take it or leave it, Cavs. That's the best we're going to offer.
"Be Legendary."

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In2ition
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Re: Around the League: The Offseason

Post by In2ition »

Obviously, Bledsoe is a downgrade on offense, but with the Cavs, he becomes a big upgrade on defense. Adding in a young promising player on a rookie contract like Warren, who has become a plus defender and possibly a 20 pt scorer this season, more than makes up for the loss in scoring. I think he would be a great fit next to James and excellant option off the bench at sf. I could see the +- when James is out improving quite well. Add to it a 1st round pick from Miami, which could help a rebuild if necessary, this is a great value trade for Irving, imo.
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Split T
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Re: Around the League: The Offseason

Post by Split T »

In2ition wrote:Obviously, Bledsoe is a downgrade on offense, but with the Cavs, he becomes a big upgrade on defense. Adding in a young promising player on a rookie contract like Warren, who has become a plus defender and possibly a 20 pt scorer this season, more than makes up for the loss in scoring. I think he would be a great fit next to James and excellant option off the bench at sf. I could see the +- when James is out improving quite well. Add to it a 1st round pick from Miami, which could help a rebuild if necessary, this is a great value trade for Irving, imo.
I don't know that I'd call Warren a plus defender, he's improved, but he's average at best imo. And the trouble with him is he doesn't shoot enough for a perimeter player. I'm getting more and more convinced that you put him next to a big rim protecting rebound machine and he'd make a very dangerous 4.

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Ring_Wanted
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Re: Around the League: The Offseason

Post by Ring_Wanted »

Split T wrote:I'm getting more and more convinced that you put him next to a big rim protecting rebound machine and he'd make a very dangerous 4.
Preach!

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Hermen
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Re: Around the League: The Offseason

Post by Hermen »

This discussion is in two threads and progressing rapidly so I apologize if someone already mentioned this, but have you not seen the return teams get for trading superstars this year? For all the bashing the Kings got when they traded Cousins, I think they did better than Chicago and Indiana. Butler and George are both at least as good as Irving (and I think I'm generous to Irving here), and OKC even saved money when trading for George! Butler has pretty much the same contract as Irving, plays defense, and here is what the Bulls got:
- Lavine (seriously injured): I'd say a worse asset than Bledsoe, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
- Dunn: worse rookie year than Chriss, less potential than Bender (IMO), but let's say the same ballpark value.
- Upgrade from 16th to 7th in the draft.
- I'm not aware of any bad contracts going to the Wolves.

Given this, I'd say Bledsoe + Chriss/Bender + Miami's pick is a better offer than what the Bulls got and as far as I would go (and I would prefer trading Chriss over Bender), Jackson is off limits, and if they want to include a bad contract (Shumpert, Frye), I'm taking the pick off the table.

Edit: Also, while Bledsoe's injury history is very bad, Irving is far from an ironman himself. If I remember correctly he had a lot of knee problems as well.

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Split T
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Re: Around the League: The Offseason

Post by Split T »

Hermen wrote:This discussion is in two threads and progressing rapidly so I apologize if someone already mentioned this, but have you not seen the return teams get for trading superstars this year? For all the bashing the Kings got when they traded Cousins, I think they did better than Chicago and Indiana. Butler and George are both at least as good as Irving (and I think I'm generous to Irving here), and OKC even saved money when trading for George! Butler has pretty much the same contract as Irving, plays defense, and here is what the Bulls got:
- Lavine (seriously injured): I'd say a worse asset than Bledsoe, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
- Dunn: worse rookie year than Chriss, less potential than Bender (IMO), but let's say the same ballpark value.
- Upgrade from 16th to 7th in the draft.
- I'm not aware of any bad contracts going to the Wolves.

Given this, I'd say Bledsoe + Chriss/Bender + Miami's pick is a better offer than what the Bulls got and as far as I would go (and I would prefer trading Chriss over Bender), Jackson is off limits, and if they want to include a bad contract (Shumpert, Frye), I'm taking the pick off the table.

Edit: Also, while Bledsoe's injury history is very bad, Irving is far from an ironman himself. If I remember correctly he had a lot of knee problems as well.
That's a good point. I understand somewhat why cousins and pg13 didn't fetch much. Cousins has attitude concerns and he's never won anything. PG13 going to LA next year kept the offers lower than they would have been. Still, I thought both would fetch more than they did.

The Butler trade surprises me. Butler doesn't have character concerns, is under contract for two more years, and was not asking to be traded. Chicago must really love the potential of Dunn. I do like Lavine, he's not a star and doesn't do much else, but he can score and can shoot a little.

Bled/Miami 1st plus one of Warren/Chriss/Bender seems like a pretty fair offer.

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Re: Around the League: The Offseason

Post by O_Gardino »

Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:"There is no reason to think he would stick around."

This strikes me as a particularly negative/defeatist attitude. Why should we ever go after any player, then? Apparently this franchise is a dump and nobody has any reason to ever want to play here.

Teams like Houston and Boston don't think this way. If they want a player, they go after that player and try to get him. They don't wring their hands talking about how the player will desert them and not want to stay.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_composition

Kyrie is not "any player...ever". He is one specific dude who wants to leave a very good situation in Cleveland. He is winning there, he can get paid the most there, and he can be the man there. He has released a very specific list of 4 destinations where he wants to play. Playing in those cities is more important to him than winning or money.
Last edited by O_Gardino on Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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O_Gardino
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Re: Around the League: The Offseason

Post by O_Gardino »

Split T wrote:
In2ition wrote:Obviously, Bledsoe is a downgrade on offense, but with the Cavs, he becomes a big upgrade on defense. Adding in a young promising player on a rookie contract like Warren, who has become a plus defender and possibly a 20 pt scorer this season, more than makes up for the loss in scoring. I think he would be a great fit next to James and excellant option off the bench at sf. I could see the +- when James is out improving quite well. Add to it a 1st round pick from Miami, which could help a rebuild if necessary, this is a great value trade for Irving, imo.
I don't know that I'd call Warren a plus defender, he's improved, but he's average at best imo. And the trouble with him is he doesn't shoot enough for a perimeter player. I'm getting more and more convinced that you put him next to a big rim protecting rebound machine and he'd make a very dangerous 4.
THIS. Warren may not be a star, but he was our best PF last season.
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Split T
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Re: Around the League: The Offseason

Post by Split T »

Perhaps the situation in Cleveland is not as good as you think. I was listening to a podcast the other day and they made some good points.

1. It looks pretty likely that Cleveland tried to trade Kyrie before the draft
2. No way would Cleveland do that without LeBron's approval.
3. Kyrie signed in Cleveland thinking the team would be built around him, then they got LeBron and every move was about appeasing LeBron.
4. Decent chance LeBron leaves next year and Kyrie gets stuck with the team they put together based specifically on a departed players skills. Team also has no potential growth in the near future.
5. Kyrie doesn't need to be the man, just wants some control over his future. He listed Minny and SA as places he wants to play. He's not gonna usurp Kawhi, KAT, and Butler as the alphas on those teams.
6. Kyrie won his championship, now he wants to see how good he is. Playing with LeBron, all people say is, look how good LeBron made Kyrie. Maybe Kyrie wants some more credit for his own play.
Kyrie is not "any player...ever". He is one specific dude who want to leave a very good situation in Cleveland. He is winning there, he can et paid the most there, and he can be the man there. He has released a very specific list of 4 destination where he wants to play. Playing in those cities is more important to him than winning or money.
Playing in New York would be playing at home and he'd form a dangerous duo with Porzingis. Easy to see why he'd want to play there.

Miami is the one team where Kyrie might just like the idea of loving in Miami. Still, they have a great coach and a great track record of bringing in star players.

As far as San Antonio and Minnesota, I can't imagine a player wanting to go to those teams if it wasn't about winning. They both have great coaches and great players and are pseudo contenders this year.

It's funny to me that Kyrie is getting crap for doing what everyone wanted Durant to do. We rip on Durant for wanting to play with other stars, but when Kyrie wants to not play with a certain star, we rip on him too.

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Re: Around the League: The Offseason

Post by O_Gardino »

I'm not ripping Kyrie, I'm just assessing the chances he stays with the Suns when his contract is up. His value is higher in a a trade if we know we can keep him long enough to build with him. His value is lower if we know he doesn't want to be here and will leave soon.
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In2ition
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Re: Around the League: The Offseason

Post by In2ition »

O_Gardino wrote:
Split T wrote:
In2ition wrote:Obviously, Bledsoe is a downgrade on offense, but with the Cavs, he becomes a big upgrade on defense. Adding in a young promising player on a rookie contract like Warren, who has become a plus defender and possibly a 20 pt scorer this season, more than makes up for the loss in scoring. I think he would be a great fit next to James and excellant option off the bench at sf. I could see the +- when James is out improving quite well. Add to it a 1st round pick from Miami, which could help a rebuild if necessary, this is a great value trade for Irving, imo.
I don't know that I'd call Warren a plus defender, he's improved, but he's average at best imo. And the trouble with him is he doesn't shoot enough for a perimeter player. I'm getting more and more convinced that you put him next to a big rim protecting rebound machine and he'd make a very dangerous 4.
THIS. Warren may not be a star, but he was our best PF last season.
I agree that he was the Suns best PF last year, and could be a very good small ball SSOL PF in the future.
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Split T
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Re: Around the League: The Offseason

Post by Split T »

O_Gardino wrote:I'm not ripping Kyrie, I'm just assessing the chances he stays with the Suns when his contract is up. His value is higher in a a trade if we know we can keep him long enough to build with him. His value is lower if we know he doesn't want to be here and will leave soon.
Didn't mean to imply you were, that was more of a general comment. But I don't think him listing those 4 teams means he won't play in Phoenix past 2019. We'd be under a little pressure to start winning games, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

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Split T
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Re: Around the League: The Offseason

Post by Split T »

https://twitter.com/vincethepolack/status/879357043303469057

If this is true, combined with the fact that Cleveland is looking for blue Chip prospects now, it tells me LeBron is gone after this year. Was Cleveland really the team to say no to an Irving for bled and Paul George trade? They had to be pretty convinced George and LeBron would leave next year to not give that a chance. Also would explain why Cleveland wants Jackson. We were apparently willing to part with #4 for Kyrie at one time. Perhaps we weren't expecting Jackson to be available.

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Re: Around the League: The Offseason

Post by JCSunsfan »

Split T wrote:Perhaps the situation in Cleveland is not as good as you think. I was listening to a podcast the other day and they made some good points.

1. It looks pretty likely that Cleveland tried to trade Kyrie before the draft
2. No way would Cleveland do that without LeBron's approval.
3. Kyrie signed in Cleveland thinking the team would be built around him, then they got LeBron and every move was about appeasing LeBron.
4. Decent chance LeBron leaves next year and Kyrie gets stuck with the team they put together based specifically on a departed players skills. Team also has no potential growth in the near future.
5. Kyrie doesn't need to be the man, just wants some control over his future. He listed Minny and SA as places he wants to play. He's not gonna usurp Kawhi, KAT, and Butler as the alphas on those teams.
6. Kyrie won his championship, now he wants to see how good he is. Playing with LeBron, all people say is, look how good LeBron made Kyrie. Maybe Kyrie wants some more credit for his own play.
Kyrie is not "any player...ever". He is one specific dude who want to leave a very good situation in Cleveland. He is winning there, he can et paid the most there, and he can be the man there. He has released a very specific list of 4 destination where he wants to play. Playing in those cities is more important to him than winning or money.
Playing in New York would be playing at home and he'd form a dangerous duo with Porzingis. Easy to see why he'd want to play there.

Miami is the one team where Kyrie might just like the idea of loving in Miami. Still, they have a great coach and a great track record of bringing in star players.

As far as San Antonio and Minnesota, I can't imagine a player wanting to go to those teams if it wasn't about winning. They both have great coaches and great players and are pseudo contenders this year.

It's funny to me that Kyrie is getting crap for doing what everyone wanted Durant to do. We rip on Durant for wanting to play with other stars, but when Kyrie wants to not play with a certain star, we rip on him too.
I was reading somewhere that its not about Kyrie being "the man" its about LeBron treating Kyrie like "little bro" rather than an equal and valuable teammate. I can see that. LeBron has a condescending way about him to others.

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Re: Around the League: The Offseason

Post by JCSunsfan »

Split T wrote:

https://twitter.com/vincethepolack/status/879357043303469057

If this is true, combined with the fact that Cleveland is looking for blue Chip prospects now, it tells me LeBron is gone after this year. Was Cleveland really the team to say no to an Irving for bled and Paul George trade? They had to be pretty convinced George and LeBron would leave next year to not give that a chance. Also would explain why Cleveland wants Jackson. We were apparently willing to part with #4 for Kyrie at one time. Perhaps we weren't expecting Jackson to be available.
I don't think we thought Jackson would be available. We would have been looking at Tatum or Isaac. Once Jackson fell, everything changed.

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O_Gardino
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Re: Around the League: The Offseason

Post by O_Gardino »

Split T wrote:

https://twitter.com/vincethepolack/status/879357043303469057

If this is true, combined with the fact that Cleveland is looking for blue Chip prospects now, it tells me LeBron is gone after this year. Was Cleveland really the team to say no to an Irving for bled and Paul George trade? They had to be pretty convinced George and LeBron would leave next year to not give that a chance. Also would explain why Cleveland wants Jackson. We were apparently willing to part with #4 for Kyrie at one time. Perhaps we weren't expecting Jackson to be available.
All very interesting. I, for one, didn't expect Jackson to be there.
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Aztec Sunsfan
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Re: Around the League: The Offseason

Post by Aztec Sunsfan »

O_Gardino wrote:
Split T wrote:

https://twitter.com/vincethepolack/status/879357043303469057

If this is true, combined with the fact that Cleveland is looking for blue Chip prospects now, it tells me LeBron is gone after this year. Was Cleveland really the team to say no to an Irving for bled and Paul George trade? They had to be pretty convinced George and LeBron would leave next year to not give that a chance. Also would explain why Cleveland wants Jackson. We were apparently willing to part with #4 for Kyrie at one time. Perhaps we weren't expecting Jackson to be available.
All very interesting. I, for one, didn't expect Jackson to be there.
Without those cancelled workouts, that was really accurate to think. And if we were more involved on that maneuver that we can say, is easy to see why we can't just trade the guy

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carey
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Re: Around the League: The Offseason

Post by carey »

I don't know what's wrong with me but I find all of this completely uninteresting. :(

I don't want Kyrie. I don't want any part of Cleveland's mess or drama. I just want to develop our players and enjoy the '17-'18 season without a flurry of moves and bruised egos.
Go Suns!

Og Snus!

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Cap
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Re: Around the League: The Offseason

Post by Cap »

carey wrote:I don't know what's wrong with me but I find all of this completely uninteresting. :(

I don't want Kyrie. I don't want any part of Cleveland's mess or drama. I just want to develop our players and enjoy the '17-'18 season without a flurry of moves and bruised egos.
I'm not terribly excited about Kyrie either, but I'm open to taking a chance on him if it doesn't cost too much.

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Re: Around the League: The Offseason

Post by Furlanfufi »

carey wrote:I don't know what's wrong with me but I find all of this completely uninteresting. :(

I don't want Kyrie. I don't want any part of Cleveland's mess or drama. I just want to develop our players and enjoy the '17-'18 season without a flurry of moves and bruised egos.
I'm with you here.

If we can facilitate a deal for him, good, otherwise, pass.

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