Have the Suns ever had any legit two-way (offense, defense) players?

[Charlie Smithy!]

I'm guessing the answer to this one is a 'yes' but I'm honestly having a hard time thinking of a good example. Also, not thinking of 3 and D players here, like Raja.

My following guesses:

Majerle (pre-1994-95)

Maybe KJ?

...JJ?

...Ronnie Lee? (Total guess here, obviously before my time).

Charles Bark...hahaha!

Maybe Walter Davis (again, before my time)?

Perhaps Boris Diaw?

Maybe Marbury?

...and hopefully in the future, Devin Booker!

[3rdside]

The Matrix?

[ShelC]

Grant Hill? Jason Kidd?

[O_Gardino]

Going back as far as I can remember. I included guys who weren't stars but could create offense for themselves or others. I also included some guys I probably shouldn't have because the reality wasn't up to what they could have been for us. What i don't remember is whether Rex Chapman or Ceballos played any D.

Ainge, Majerle, Manning, Finley, Kidd, McDyess, Clifford Robinson, Googs, Marion, Hardaway, Joe Johnson, Marbury, Boris, Hill, Shaq, Dragic, Bledsoe.

[ShelC]

Have we ever had a truly dominant perimeter player? Would Booker be our first? Joe Johnson had the ability but left and wasn't really "superstar" material.

[The Bobster]

Larry Nance
Dennis Johnson
Maurice Lucas
Alvan Adams

And Booker has light years to go before he's a good defender.

[The Bobster]

Have we ever had a truly dominant perimeter player? Would Booker be our first? Joe Johnson had the ability but left and wasn't really "superstar" material.

We had two at the same time in the late 70's -

Westphal 1976-80 - 32.1 Min, 52.4 FG%, 83.4 FT%, 2.2 Reb, 5.7 Ast, 23.1 Pts
Davis 1977-80 - 31.2 Min, 54.9 FG%, 82.7 FT%, 4.8 Reb, 4.0 Ast, 23.1 Pts

And that Steve Nash guy was pretty good on the perimeter.

[Wally_West]

The only person that comes to mind is...

M A R K I E F F
M O R R I S!!!

[Cap]

Larry Nance
Dennis Johnson
Maurice Lucas
Alvan Adams

Those four players combined for five All-Star selections as Suns.

[The Bobster]

Larry Nance
Dennis Johnson
Maurice Lucas
Alvan Adams

Those four players combined for five All-Star selections as Suns.

This was in answer to the legit two-way player question. Larry Nance, Shawn Marion and Jason Kidd are probably the best two-way players the Suns have ever had.

[ShelC]

Those guys were before my time so they don't count

And while Nash was great, I wouldn't call him a dominant offensive player in terms of scoring. He could've been Curry if he had a scoring mentality, but he was a pure PG.

[The Bobster]

Those guys were before my time so they don't count

And while Nash was great, I wouldn't call him a dominant offensive player in terms of scoring. He could've been Curry if he had a scoring mentality, but he was a pure PG.

You probably should have said dominant scorer rather than dominant offensive player. Nash definitely was a terrific shooter and dominant offensive player, he just didn't have a "shoot first" mind set.

[Charlie Smithy!]

Totally spaced on Grant Hill; I forgot just how effective he was for us on both ends, even at his advanced age. I am glad he got to experience some playoff success with us. I'll always remember him being automatic from mid-range.

In regards to Jason Kidd and Shawn Marion, I personally didn't include either. Mainly due to Kidd's lack of a 'J' (when he was here) and Marion's inability to create his own shot (something that I probably shoulda specified in the topic's title - ah well).

Point remains though that Kidd and Marion definitely were two-way players in their own ways. Ways.

[LazarusLong]

Depends on your definition of "legit" ...

I'd put DJ in there for sure. In his three years as a Sun, Johnson played in two All-Star Games, was voted into three consecutive All-Defensive First Teams and earned his only All-NBA First Team appearance. Not surprisingly, the best Celtic teams include DJ, who Larry Bird called the best teammate he ever had. The DJ trade for Rick Robey still exists as the Suns worst trade ever.

Dick Van Arsdale was a solid two-way player. He had a decent mid-range jumper and was fearless going to the hoop. Rick Barry said Van played him tougher defensively than anybody else.

Jason Kidd's jumper could be spotty, but he could do everything else well. In the strike-shortened 98-99 season, he average closed to 11 assists, 7 rebounds and 2.5 steals a game.

[Charlie Smithy!]

Thanks for the insight, Laz & everyone else.

I'm sure this has been explained before, but why *was* Dennis Johnson traded? I'm guessing personality conflicts somewhere?

[LazarusLong]

DJ liked to express his opinions, sometimes loudly. That's why he got traded from Seattle, whose old-school coach, Lenny Wilkens, did not like being challenged.
DJ was traded from Seattle to Phoenix for Paul Westphal. Westy, even though a star, got crosswise with John Macleod by complaining about playing rotation minutes.
Westy complained that MacLeod took players out of the game even when they were on a hot streak, because they had gone over their allotted minutes.

With the Suns, DJ complained about roughly the same thing, saying MacLeod was too regimented.
He also thought MacLeod's late season practice sessions were too long/early in the day and unnecessary.
Also, after awhile, MacLeod would yell/whistle directions from the bench and DJ started ignoring them.

[sunshoopjunky]

The Matrix?

1st name I thought of.

[ShelC]

What defines a 2-way player? Would Raja have qualified? He was more of a 3 and D type. JJ had the offensive game, but I don't remember him being a staunch defender.

Cliff Robinson? Solid post defender, could do just about everything offensively.

[The Bobster]

I think to be a legitimate two-way player they need to be able to create scoring opportunities offensively either for themselves or a teammate, and they need to be able to play both man and team defense.

So I guess using those parameters, my short list would probably be -

Larry Nance (I think he was probably the one who had the best balance between offense and defense)
Shawn Marion (didn't create his own shots that well, but was a great finisher and rebounder)
Jason Kidd (couldn't shoot that well, could do pretty much everything else)
Alvan Adams (really underrated, Adams was a very good all-around player who played in that era where MacLeod limited eveyrone's minutes)
Joe Johnson (very solid player all over the floor on both ends)
Michael Finley (not a great shooter, but was a good scorer)
Dennis Johnson (pretty similar to Kidd, except not as good a passer, and a little (albeit streaky) better shooter)
Grant Hill (his offense had really slipped by the time he got here, but his defense was excellent)
Clifford Robinson (good, very versatile defender, good perimeter shooter/scorer)

And Boris Diaw would be without question be on this list if he played every game like the 2006 playoffs.

[3rdside]

What defines a 2-way player? Would Raja have qualified? He was more of a 3 and D type. JJ had the offensive game, but I don't remember him being a staunch defender.

Cliff Robinson? Solid post defender, could do just about everything offensively.

I looked up uncle spliffy's stats in all of this - for a guy who's 6'10" with long arms and playing 35 mins ... damn.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... ncl02.html

Not sure if that disqualifies him? Does that make rebounding a third way?


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