Suns 2017 Free Agency

[specialsauce]

I would not give him one penny more than Big Sauce. And I'd prefer to keep Big Sauce over Len. Len sucks

[Mori Chu]

I like Sauce but I think he is starting to get overrated by many here. He's undersized (vertically) and oversized (horizontally) compared to what you'd want in an NBA center. He has a nose for the ball and is currently a better rebounder than Len, but Len will always have size and height on Williams. Len is also a much better shooter. And Len is a few years younger and has more room to grow in his career, while Williams probably won't get much better than he currently is due to his age and years playing pro hoops. I think Len is a higher ceiling player overall despite the fact that Williams is probably currently better in several ways.

[ShelC]

Agreed on both Len and Williams (and Lopez). The thing with Lopez is that our expectations were probably skewed because we drafted him and wanted him to be better, not unlike Len. And Williams...yea, guys like him can be found just about every year and rarely do 6-9 rebounding centers ever really find longevity in the league, much less consistent minutes on a winning team.

[carey]

http://www.espn.com/nba/player/stats/_/ ... 7/alex-len

His stats regressed slightly last year, but that's partly because we signed Chandler to steal his minutes. He went down by 3 minutes per game from 23.3 to 20.3. That's a lot. If we had actually given him a starting/major role, his numbers would have gone up.

I don't see it. He grabbed 1 rebound every 3.06 min, same rebound rate as last year. He scored a point every 2.5 minutes. Same scoring rate. He fouled more in less minutes. He turned it over at a slightly better rate which I guess is the one thing he actually improved on (once every 15 min instead of once every 12 minutes.) His overall FG% improved slightly but he's not even at 50%, which for a 7' 1" C is not good. I can live with Len getting a moderate contract but you should only pay for his production and not his potential right now because he didn't make the year 3 leap after year 4 so he's 2 years behind where he should be right now.

[bajanguy008]

Is there a date we have to or should finalize Len and Sauce contracts by ?

[Wormwood]

Agreed on both Len and Williams (and Lopez). The thing with Lopez is that our expectations were probably skewed because we drafted him and wanted him to be better, not unlike Len. And Williams...yea, guys like him can be found just about every year and rarely do 6-9 rebounding centers ever really find longevity in the league, much less consistent minutes on a winning team.

Strongly disagree. Williams was 8th in the NBA in defensive rebounding rate, 9th in offensive rebounding rate, and 6th in overall rebounding rate. The guy is an ELITE rebounder. He's also ranked 22nd among power forwards in Defensive Real Plus Minus, and had the second highest player efficiency rating on the team, behind only Bledsoe (19.6 to 20.6). His net RPM was 4th highest on the team (behind Bled, Chandler, and Dudley). He had an Offensive Rating of 113 (very good) according to basketball reference.

In comparison, Len is much worse in every single category I mentioned.

He's also only 24, which means locking him up for 4 years keeps him while he's in his prime (compared with Dudley and Tyson, who are on the back end).

[carey]

Is there a date we have to or should finalize Len and Sauce contracts by ?

I believe October 31st is the deadline for RFAs and also for team options to be exercised on any contracts.

[JCSunsfan]

http://www.espn.com/nba/player/stats/_/ ... 7/alex-len

His stats regressed slightly last year, but that's partly because we signed Chandler to steal his minutes. He went down by 3 minutes per game from 23.3 to 20.3. That's a lot. If we had actually given him a starting/major role, his numbers would have gone up.

I don't see it. He grabbed 1 rebound every 3.06 min, same rebound rate as last year. He scored a point every 2.5 minutes. Same scoring rate. He fouled more in less minutes. He turned it over at a slightly better rate which I guess is the one thing he actually improved on (once every 15 min instead of once every 12 minutes.) His overall FG% improved slightly but he's not even at 50%, which for a 7' 1" C is not good. I can live with Len getting a moderate contract but you should only pay for his production and not his potential right now because he didn't make the year 3 leap after year 4 so he's 2 years behind where he should be right now.

His rebound rate was 29th in the league. Ahead of such players as Anthony Davis, Nurkic, and Embiid. He improved his offensive efficiency to over 50% shooting which is great for him. He fouled at a slightly higher rate but that's because he had more fouls per minute to burn. He is not developing as fast as we would have liked but he looks like he is going to be a productive NBA player.

See, same facts. Just perspective difference.

[O_Gardino]

http://www.espn.com/nba/player/stats/_/ ... 7/alex-len

His stats regressed slightly last year, but that's partly because we signed Chandler to steal his minutes. He went down by 3 minutes per game from 23.3 to 20.3. That's a lot. If we had actually given him a starting/major role, his numbers would have gone up.

I don't see it. He grabbed 1 rebound every 3.06 min, same rebound rate as last year. He scored a point every 2.5 minutes. Same scoring rate. He fouled more in less minutes. He turned it over at a slightly better rate which I guess is the one thing he actually improved on (once every 15 min instead of once every 12 minutes.) His overall FG% improved slightly but he's not even at 50%, which for a 7' 1" C is not good. I can live with Len getting a moderate contract but you should only pay for his production and not his potential right now because he didn't make the year 3 leap after year 4 so he's 2 years behind where he should be right now.

You've got to stop looking at his overall fg% numbers. That's coaching. Len, if coached to his strengths, would be a better version of Williams. His problem is that we keep trying to run plays through him.

Personally, I'd be willing to let him walk because of the opportunity cost of keeping him. Could his minutes go to someone who is a better fit for the team? If the answer is no, then keep him. He's a good rebounder, a good shot blocker, a good finisher around the rim, he's good at setting screens, and he has some chemistry with our best player. But if we need a center who can shoot and score out of iso in the high post, then we need to move on.

[jonh]

I like Sauce but I think he is starting to get overrated by many here. He's undersized (vertically) and oversized (horizontally) compared to what you'd want in an NBA center. He has a nose for the ball and is currently a better rebounder than Len, but Len will always have size and height on Williams. Len is also a much better shooter. And Len is a few years younger and has more room to grow in his career, while Williams probably won't get much better than he currently is due to his age and years playing pro hoops. I think Len is a higher ceiling player overall despite the fact that Williams is probably currently better in several ways.

Agreed. I'm willing to pay (a little) more for Len than Williams because I still believe he can continue to develop, and because he fills a hole that the suns would need to fill anyways if they let him leave.

[Cap]

I like Sauce but I think he is starting to get overrated by many here. He's undersized (vertically) and oversized (horizontally) compared to what you'd want in an NBA center.

[Aztec Sunsfan]

Remember Robin Lopez. We gave up on him at just the wrong time. I think we should keep Len because big men take longer and he's shown promise and improvement. I think if we sign him for 2-3 more years, he'll grow and improve a lot during that time. I don't want to break the bank, but around $10-12 mil a year is fine for him.

Looks like we always take the late bloomers... Seriously, other big men have made some impact from year 1, I know Alex enter the league young but he was not Jermaine O'Neal young, besides, we are talking about a frigging former 5th pick!!!

If his failure after FOUR YEARS to become a difference maker, at least a clear cut building block, is on our development team, what makes you think that somehow they are going to get it right next season, and if the blame it's on him, either he will be another Wesley Johnson trying to milk that draft position to the last drop, or he gets a reality check and start working his ass off, but I don't think he "gets it" if he just have to sign another dotted line and keep on his usual routine on a raise, at least Robin had to work for pennies (NBA pennies). Some people just happen to be very tall and therefore enter the league as a way to pay the bills, that lack of pasión keeps them away from reaching his potential, the same way many people lives forever on a cubicle and just get by another day in office, another paycheck coming.

I remember Robin Lopez, and he still is the lesser brother, even as Brook has barely managed to stay healthy almost his entire career. Please, please, let's find another example better than going from Bad to Average to discuss this.

[In2ition]

I don't know if this falls in the late bloomers that you are looking for, but Whiteside was out of the league and is now one of the best. McGee was thought of as a talented clown, but too dumb to put it together. IIRC, Parrish was given up on by his first team, before going to the Celtics and began reaching his potential. There are probably others ...

[The Bobster]

I like Sauce but I think he is starting to get overrated by many here. He's undersized (vertically) and oversized (horizontally) compared to what you'd want in an NBA center.

Unseld had some similarities and I like the comparison, but he was also a great passer, and was a terrific defensive player despite his (relative) lack of height.

Plus, Unseld did it for 1,000+ NBA regular season and playoff games, playing starter's minutes. Williams hasn't started a single game or played 1,000 minutes for his career yet.

[Aztec Sunsfan]

Parrish would do. Whiteside did not receive the chance that Len did, being nurtured and groomed four years to develop. McGee is still McGee, but playing for an Uber superior team, you can get bye as the resident clown and still looks good.

[Mori Chu]

I have already said this, but if you want to understand why Len's numbers are down a bit this past year, look no further than Tyson Chandler. Len lost his starting job and a chunk of his minutes to a new veteran FA. Why wouldn't his numbers go down? His role went down, significantly. The team showed no confidence in him. We have also misused the guy, trying to start games by running plays through him and other such foolishness.

[specialsauce]

I like Sauce but I think he is starting to get overrated by many here. He's undersized (vertically) and oversized (horizontally) compared to what you'd want in an NBA center. He has a nose for the ball and is currently a better rebounder than Len, but Len will always have size and height on Williams. Len is also a much better shooter. And Len is a few years younger and has more room to grow in his career, while Williams probably won't get much better than he currently is due to his age and years playing pro hoops. I think Len is a higher ceiling player overall despite the fact that Williams is probably currently better in several ways.

Man I think you couldn't be further off on this.

Size isn't everything. You guys are just brainwashed by him being 7 foot. He sucks. He can't even stay on the court because he's always in foul trouble. You'll forever be saying he has room to grow just because he's tall. Yeah, well so are a lot of other really shitty players. Still waiting for that to happen. He hasn't improved a bit since his rookie year. He doesn't have hands.

[JCSunsfan]

I would love to keep Sauce and Len and either trade or bench Chandler.

[Ring_Wanted]

Strongly disagree. Williams was 8th in the NBA in defensive rebounding rate, 9th in offensive rebounding rate, and 6th in overall rebounding rate. The guy is an ELITE rebounder. He's also ranked 22nd among power forwards in Defensive Real Plus Minus, and had the second highest player efficiency rating on the team, behind only Bledsoe (19.6 to 20.6). His net RPM was 4th highest on the team (behind Bled, Chandler, and Dudley). He had an Offensive Rating of 113 (very good) according to basketball reference.

In comparison, Len is much worse in every single category I mentioned.

He's also only 24, which means locking him up for 4 years keeps him while he's in his prime (compared with Dudley and Tyson, who are on the back end).

Preach, WW.

I am aware that stats are kind to him and to me they pass the eye test. Big Sauce is fat and short-ish but turns out he has motor, works the glass, has soft hands and is capable of finishing with finesse. There is a lot to like if you don't get carried away.

Keeping Sauce, adding an athletic big man in the draft and letting Len go was my blueprint entering the offseason.

[Ring_Wanted]

Len, if coached to his strengths, would be a better version of Williams. His problem is that we keep trying to run plays through him.

I don't know if you can coach poor hands and poor awareness out of him. Those two traits, combined with his somewhat robotic movement make him look worse than he actually is, but even conceding him the benefit of doubt (see that I am not even getting into lack of post moves, etc), I don't see anything special.