Suns 2017 Free Agency

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O_Gardino
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Re: Suns 2017 Free Agency

Post by O_Gardino »

Ring_Wanted wrote:
O_Gardino wrote:Len, if coached to his strengths, would be a better version of Williams. His problem is that we keep trying to run plays through him.
I don't know if you can coach poor hands and poor awareness out of him. Those two traits, combined with his somewhat robotic movement make him look worse than he actually is, but even conceding him the benefit of doubt (see that I am not even getting into lack of post moves, etc), I don't see anything special.
I agree that he's not all that special, but I also don't think "better version of Williams" is all that much praise.
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The Bobster
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Re: Suns 2017 Free Agency

Post by The Bobster »

Len does have some strengths - he's an excellent rebounder and shot blocker, and the best rim protector the Suns have. He's also got a nice outside touch.

Granted he has limitations as well - he's got bad hands and he's a poor finisher. At his size he may be able to become a better finisher, but they've tried to force to much offense through him in the past and that hasn't worked out to well.

If he plays within his limitations he should be good for 10 pts and 10 rebounds a night if you give him starter's minutes. How much is that worth in today's NBA? I think $12 million a year is certainly fair.
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INFORMER
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Re: Suns 2017 Free Agency

Post by INFORMER »

Shabazz wrote:I think we should stop using Robin Lopez as an example for the Suns giving up too early on a prospect. He's an OK player. Has been for the last several years. Doesn't move the needle much. I'm not sweating the fact that we don't pay Robin Lopez $15M a year to give us 12 and 6.
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EDC
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Re: Suns 2017 Free Agency

Post by EDC »

Len is really the only rim protection on the team and our defense was horrible last year. Not saying we should or shouldn't keep him but man we are going to be really bad with zero rim protection. It is okay though because if the other team happens to miss the wide open layup Chandler will be right there for the rebound because he was too old to bother attempting to block the shot.

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Split T
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Re: Suns 2017 Free Agency

Post by Split T »

Chriss, Williams, and Bender all provide some rim protection. Not at the rate of Len, but they're capable. Len just doesn't do anything else very well. I really don't want him back unless it's on the QO

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Indy
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Re: Suns 2017 Free Agency

Post by Indy »

Split T wrote:Chriss, Williams, and Bender all provide some rim protection. Not at the rate of Len, but they're capable. Len just doesn't do anything else very well. I really don't want him back unless it's on the QO
I think Len would be a more effective rim protector if our guards and wings could stay in front of their man. It is ridiculous. It also doesn't help much when Len does change/block a shot, but nobody on our team grabs the freakin' ball, and they just get an easy put back. So demoralizing for rim protector.

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The Bobster
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Re: Suns 2017 Free Agency

Post by The Bobster »

Split T wrote:Chriss, Williams, and Bender all provide some rim protection. Not at the rate of Len, but they're capable. Len just doesn't do anything else very well. I really don't want him back unless it's on the QO

Actually he's a very good rebounder too.

And he's got a decent enough shooting touch - they just shouldn't be trying to run the offense through him. I put that failure in part on the coaching staff. (the same guys who want Bender playing the point in the summer league) Len should be okay for shooting open jumpshots out to 15'-18'.

Yes, there are things Len doesn't do very well. And his inability to finish around the basket is inexcusable for a player as big and strong as he is. However, there are positive things that he does too and some people are just choosing to ignore them.
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Superbone
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Re: Suns 2017 Free Agency

Post by Superbone »

The Bobster wrote:
Split T wrote:Chriss, Williams, and Bender all provide some rim protection. Not at the rate of Len, but they're capable. Len just doesn't do anything else very well. I really don't want him back unless it's on the QO

Actually he's a very good rebounder too.

And he's got a decent enough shooting touch - they just shouldn't be trying to run the offense through him. I put that failure in part on the coaching staff. (the same guys who want Bender playing the point in the summer league) Len should be okay for shooting open jumpshots out to 15'-18'.

Yes, there are things Len doesn't do very well. And his inability to finish around the basket is inexcusable for a player as big and strong as he is. However, there are positive things that he does too and some people are just choosing to ignore them.
Thanks, Bobster. A rare balanced take about Len on this site.
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Wormwood
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Re: Suns 2017 Free Agency

Post by Wormwood »

Len ranks 22nd in rebound rate for NBA centers, out of 60. While that sounds good, keep in mind that there's only 30 starters among those 60. So, overall, he's somewhere around average to slightly below average among starting centers, but above average overall.

He ranks 30th in defensive real plus minus out of 66 centers. Again, slightly above average overall, but below average for a starting center.

He ranks 64th out of 66 centers in offensive RPM, which in and of itself is offensive.

Overall, he's 58th out of 64 in terms of total RPM given just how abysmal he is on the offensive side.

As such, I would not pay him more than what an average back up C should earn at most.

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O_Gardino
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Re: Suns 2017 Free Agency

Post by O_Gardino »

The Bobster wrote:
Split T wrote:Chriss, Williams, and Bender all provide some rim protection. Not at the rate of Len, but they're capable. Len just doesn't do anything else very well. I really don't want him back unless it's on the QO

Actually he's a very good rebounder too.

And he's got a decent enough shooting touch - they just shouldn't be trying to run the offense through him. I put that failure in part on the coaching staff. (the same guys who want Bender playing the point in the summer league) Len should be okay for shooting open jumpshots out to 15'-18'.

Yes, there are things Len doesn't do very well. And his inability to finish around the basket is inexcusable for a player as big and strong as he is. However, there are positive things that he does too and some people are just choosing to ignore them.
I agree with most of this, and what Split T had to say, too. And I worry a lot about what our rebounding looks like if we have both Bender and Chriss on the court.

I'm tempted to argue semantics about Len finishing around the basket (because he hits a pretty good % in close), but really I just want to add that he sets good screens.
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The Bobster
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Re: Suns 2017 Free Agency

Post by The Bobster »

O_Gardino wrote:
The Bobster wrote:
Split T wrote:Chriss, Williams, and Bender all provide some rim protection. Not at the rate of Len, but they're capable. Len just doesn't do anything else very well. I really don't want him back unless it's on the QO

Actually he's a very good rebounder too.

And he's got a decent enough shooting touch - they just shouldn't be trying to run the offense through him. I put that failure in part on the coaching staff. (the same guys who want Bender playing the point in the summer league) Len should be okay for shooting open jumpshots out to 15'-18'.

Yes, there are things Len doesn't do very well. And his inability to finish around the basket is inexcusable for a player as big and strong as he is. However, there are positive things that he does too and some people are just choosing to ignore them.
I agree with most of this, and what Split T had to say, too. And I worry a lot about what our rebounding looks like if we have both Bender and Chriss on the court.

I'm tempted to argue semantics about Len finishing around the basket (because he hits a pretty good % in close), but really I just want to add that he sets good screens.
His main problems around the basket stem from bringing the ball down to low and getting stripped, or just having bad bars and fumbling too many passes or shot attempts.

I like Len's athleticism and he has some skills - I just don't think the coaching staff has handled him well and I don't think Len has enough confidence or aggression to take advantage of the opportunities he has had so far.
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specialsauce
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Re: Suns 2017 Free Agency

Post by specialsauce »

A better coaching staff won't give him better hands. A better coaching staff won't magically make him stop fouling. A better coaching staff won't FINALLY make him stop bringing the ball down low and making himself small. They've been telling him this stuff from day 1, he just is not that good.

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Split T
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Re: Suns 2017 Free Agency

Post by Split T »

The Bobster wrote:
Split T wrote:Chriss, Williams, and Bender all provide some rim protection. Not at the rate of Len, but they're capable. Len just doesn't do anything else very well. I really don't want him back unless it's on the QO

Actually he's a very good rebounder too.

And he's got a decent enough shooting touch - they just shouldn't be trying to run the offense through him. I put that failure in part on the coaching staff. (the same guys who want Bender playing the point in the summer league) Len should be okay for shooting open jumpshots out to 15'-18'.

Yes, there are things Len doesn't do very well. And his inability to finish around the basket is inexcusable for a player as big and strong as he is. However, there are positive things that he does too and some people are just choosing to ignore them.
His rebounding is fine but Williams is much better. The only thing he does better than Williams is protect the rim. I guess he's a better shooter, but he's not very good and Williams more than makes up for it with his finishing ability. Basically, I don't see the need for both and I prefer Williams by quite a bit.

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The Bobster
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Re: Suns 2017 Free Agency

Post by The Bobster »

specialsauce wrote:A better coaching staff won't give him better hands. A better coaching staff won't magically make him stop fouling. A better coaching staff won't FINALLY make him stop bringing the ball down low and making himself small. They've been telling him this stuff from day 1, he just is not that good.
Actually, it's okay to have three centers who can rebound on the same team. It was actually one of the Suns' few strengths last year. I think the coaching should have occurred much earlier than his NBA career - learning to not bring the ball down is pretty basic, but you see a lot of players who never learn. The think I do put on the Suns' coaching staff is their insistence to try to run offense through him, even when it's been shown to not be effective.

And Williams actually fouled more frequently than Len did last year. It just wasn't as evident because he didn't play as many minutes or start any games.
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The Bobster
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Re: Suns 2017 Free Agency

Post by The Bobster »

Split T wrote:His rebounding is fine but Williams is much better. The only thing he does better than Williams is protect the rim. I guess he's a better shooter, but he's not very good and Williams more than makes up for it with his finishing ability. Basically, I don't see the need for both and I prefer Williams by quite a bit.
I would rather keep both and play them, moving Chandler out at the first opportunity.
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Mori Chu
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Re: Suns 2017 Free Agency

Post by Mori Chu »

Wormwood wrote:Len ranks 22nd in rebound rate for NBA centers, out of 60. While that sounds good, keep in mind that there's only 30 starters among those 60. So, overall, he's somewhere around average to slightly below average among starting centers, but above average overall.

He ranks 30th in defensive real plus minus out of 66 centers. Again, slightly above average overall, but below average for a starting center.

He ranks 64th out of 66 centers in offensive RPM, which in and of itself is offensive.

Overall, he's 58th out of 64 in terms of total RPM given just how abysmal he is on the offensive side.

As such, I would not pay him more than what an average back up C should earn at most.
Remember that Len didn't really start for us most of this past season. Chandler did.

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ShelC
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Re: Suns 2017 Free Agency

Post by ShelC »

I've always believed there's a big difference in having a 7footer out there. Even when we had Amar'e here in his prime and he was the 5, we were a different team when Lopez was out there. He just made a difference defensively in the paint with his size. Now if Bender can grow (literally and physically) into that role, cool. But that's probably not happening this year.

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Re: Suns 2017 Free Agency

Post by O_Gardino »

I've been on the fence about Len. No way he becomes a star, but I think he's a decent role player. I think he could help a good team.

My concern with him has been the annual Logjam and our questionable willingness to flip players for future assets. If Len is taking minutes from someone who will be better than him, then we should let him go. If we keep him just because he's ours and McD doesn't want to move on, that's bad. If we miss out on a potential trade for future assets that would be bad.

OK, so from what we know this summer, I think we have pretty good answers to two of those scenarios. Is Len stealing minutes and hurting the development of Chriss or Bender? No. neither of those guys has shown enough in summer league to make me want to start them together at 4/5. Did we miss out on a trade for him at the deadline? Apparently not, since we haven't heard of anyone with interest in him.

At this point, I would be happy bringing him back for cheap.
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Aztec Sunsfan
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Re: Suns 2017 Free Agency

Post by Aztec Sunsfan »

O_Gardino wrote:I've been on the fence about Len. No way he becomes a star, but I think he's a decent role player. I think he could help a good team.

My concern with him has been the annual Logjam and our questionable willingness to flip players for future assets. If Len is taking minutes from someone who will be better than him, then we should let him go. If we keep him just because he's ours and McD doesn't want to move on, that's bad. If we miss out on a potential trade for future assets that would be bad.

OK, so from what we know this summer, I think we have pretty good answers to two of those scenarios. Is Len stealing minutes and hurting the development of Chriss or Bender? No. neither of those guys has shown enough in summer league to make me want to start them together at 4/5. Did we miss out on a trade for him at the deadline? Apparently not, since we haven't heard of anyone with interest in him.

At this point, I would be happy bringing him back for cheap.
An usual complain around here, is that Len was never given the chance to swim or sink, and I agree that neither Chriss nor Bender are showing big things so far, but we would be repeating the cycle of getting a patch player, then benching the prospect we want to develop.

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Mori Chu
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Re: Suns 2017 Free Agency

Post by Mori Chu »

But Bender doesn't deserve to start at this point. We criticize Len a lot, but in 2017-18, if you gave Len 36 minutes a night at center, he would put up *MUCH* better numbers than Dragan Bender would in that same spot. Bender probably isn't ready for that particular role yet.

And Len isn't stealing minutes away from a prospect. Len *is* a prospect. Len is barely 24 years old, just finishing a rookie contract. He is the one who had his minutes stolen from him, by our signing of Chandler to start in front of him.

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