Game Day (Preseason): Jazz (3-0) @ Suns (1-1), Mon 10/9/17

[Superbone]

Not only did we know this. We need it. This next draft is going to have a handful of real difference makers. We need one of them.

It feels like I read this every year

This is it! I promise it will be the LAST time I ask for it this generation. Then it's time to start being good!

[specialsauce]

It’s not just that Benders shot isn’t falling. It’s that he does nothing with the ball when he gets it. Once in a blue moon he shoots a three. He just passes to the next guy. He doesn’t cut, he doesn’t dribble, he has no sense of offensive aggression and he hasn’t got a clue what to do with the ball when he gets it. It ain’t age, sorry. You’re not going to suddenly start playing with purpose in 2 years. It’s one thing if he’s being aggressive and making mistakes like Jackson or inefficient like Booker. Those you can correct. You can’t teach what he’s missing.

[specialsauce]

And you aren’t fixing Chriss’s sense of entitlement.

I’m high on Booker Ulis Jackson Warren and Reed.

Done with Bender and Chriss.

[Ring_Wanted]

Not only did we know this. We need it. This next draft is going to have a handful of real difference makers. We need one of them.

It feels like I read this every year

No way. 2013 and 2016 were drafts almost universally assumed as terrible. Nobody was saying there was a difference maker to be had in either top10. Our problem was ending up bottom 5 those two seasons and, in the case of 2016, doubling down on that lottery, which obviously is not a bad thing per se but turns into a mistake if you a) overpay for the move, which happened in my opinion and b) draft two guys at the same position in hopes that they both turn into something else and are capable of playing together.

The paradox comes when the years supposedly good to tank, 2014 and 2015, we end up in the low end of the lotto but still draft quality prospects in Warren and Booker, combined with the fact that the almighty 2014 class has been pretty underwhelming when it comes to the top, mainly due to injuries but also because some guys were pretty overrated, like Smart, Randle or Vonleh (maybe even Wiggins and Gordon).

2017 was the only season/draft where things actually went according to what looked like a rational plan, it is, suck when a strong class is available.

[Ring_Wanted]

And you aren’t fixing Chriss’s sense of entitlement.

I’m high on Booker Ulis Jackson Warren and Reed.

Done with Bender and Chriss.

Not done yet but it is increasely difficult to see anything different than another Skita and another Hakim Warrick.

Jackson is going to be a stud, though. He is worlds apart from Bender and Chriss as a prospect.

If 2018 delivers a true difference maker big man, everything would have been worth it as you are looking at a core of Booker-Jackson-Warren-2018, plus Ulis and hopefully Reed.

[carey]

If 2018 delivers a true difference maker big man, everything would have been worth it as you are looking at a core of Booker-Jackson-Warren-2018, plus Ulis and hopefully Reed.

Missing on 2 top 10 picks in the same draft is going to set you back a ways. You just can't squander draft capital like that.

[Superbone]

If 2018 delivers a true difference maker big man, everything would have been worth it as you are looking at a core of Booker-Jackson-Warren-2018, plus Ulis and hopefully Reed.

Missing on 2 top 10 picks in the same draft is going to set you back a ways. You just can't squander draft capital like that.

It's going to set us back one more year which I'm fine with since 2018 is so deep.

[O_Gardino]

The degree of pessimism and negativity on this board over these preseason games is astounding. We were always going to be one of the bottom 3 teams in the west this year. We knew this. We have a team loaded with kids who, if they even make it, are probably still 2 years away from becoming effective NBA players. There are going to be tons of ups and downs this year. More downs than ups. This is going to be a long, long season. We need to be looking at growth over the course of 82 NBA games. Not panicking over preseason.

We know our record is going to be bad, but we would like to look competitive out there.

If our young guys were any good, we would have done a lot better in summer league and early in the preseason when promising youth should outperform end of bench guys for established teams.

I think we are reacting to the lack of improvement from Chriss and Bender, and the injuries to Reed and Williams. We would look a lot better with those two anchoring our second unit.

[n4th4n]

It’s not just that Benders shot isn’t falling. It’s that he does nothing with the ball when he gets it. Once in a blue moon he shoots a three. He just passes to the next guy. He doesn’t cut, he doesn’t dribble, he has no sense of offensive aggression and he hasn’t got a clue what to do with the ball when he gets it. It ain’t age, sorry. You’re not going to suddenly start playing with purpose in 2 years. It’s one thing if he’s being aggressive and making mistakes like Jackson or inefficient like Booker. Those you can correct. You can’t teach what he’s missing.

Like I said before, do you have no recollection of Goran's first 2 years? He was so scared he couldn't even put the ball down more than 2-3 times in a row. And he came into the league older and more NBA ready then Bender.

Listen - I will gladly, gladly acknowledge that Bender and Chriss have a long long lonnnng way to go. And I am not super optimistic about either of them. But to give up on them before their sophomore season even begins is one of the most short-sighted and silly things I have ever heard.

[OE32]

It’s not just that Benders shot isn’t falling. It’s that he does nothing with the ball when he gets it. Once in a blue moon he shoots a three. He just passes to the next guy. He doesn’t cut, he doesn’t dribble, he has no sense of offensive aggression and he hasn’t got a clue what to do with the ball when he gets it. It ain’t age, sorry. You’re not going to suddenly start playing with purpose in 2 years. It’s one thing if he’s being aggressive and making mistakes like Jackson or inefficient like Booker. Those you can correct. You can’t teach what he’s missing.

Like I said before, do you have no recollection of Goran's first 2 years? He was so scared he couldn't even put the ball down more than 2-3 times in a row. And he came into the league older and more NBA ready then Bender.

Listen - I will gladly, gladly acknowledge that Bender and Chriss have a long long lonnnng way to go. And I am not super optimistic about either of them. But to give up on them before their sophomore season even begins is one of the most short-sighted and silly things I have ever heard.

WORD.

We all warn ourselves to be patient when we draft young players, and then after just a few games of preseason basketball, we snap.

It's the dark side of homerism.

[carey]

Like I said before, do you have no recollection of Goran's first 2 years? He was so scared he couldn't even put the ball down more than 2-3 times in a row. And he came into the league older and more NBA ready then Bender.

I've drawn the Goran / Dragan comparison myself so I understand what you're saying. My concern is that I'm not seeing incremental improvement from Bender or Chriss. There should be a noticeable leap between year 1 and 2 and a rather large one between year 2 and 3. That's generally how it goes. Every player follows a different path but I do think there's cause for concern.

[O_Gardino]

It's the dark side of homerism.

Perfect description of how feel this summer and preseason.

[Split T]

Like I said before, do you have no recollection of Goran's first 2 years? He was so scared he couldn't even put the ball down more than 2-3 times in a row. And he came into the league older and more NBA ready then Bender.

I've drawn the Goran / Dragan comparison myself so I understand what you're saying. My concern is that I'm not seeing incremental improvement from Bender or Chriss. There should be a noticeable leap between year 1 and 2 and a rather large one between year 2 and 3. That's generally how it goes. Every player follows a different path but I do think there's cause for concern.

Well maybe we should wait until year 2 starts before claiming they've made no improvements.

[Wormwood]

This is going to be a really bad team this year.

Tyson Chandler and Dudley are vets on a team going nowhere, being paid $10m per year to babysit. Len has shown signs of life in the preseason. He's also probably leaving after we didn't really offer him more than the QO.

At PF, I love Williams... but he's out for most of the year. Chriss and Bender do look like Skita and Warrick, and that's not a compliment. Honestly, grabbing a random, vet min guy would be an improvement here.

At SF, we have a rookie (their +/- is never good), and Warren, who doesn't space the floor or play a lick of defense. Or pass the ball that well either.

At SG, we have Booker (who has yet to show that he can score efficiently or play defense) and a vet min guy who might end up with a better +/- than our "star". Ouch.

At PG, Bledsoe is an above average player, but not much more. There's a lot of really good PGs in the league, and he's just somewhere in that mix. Ullis is a good back up.

Right now, we have nearly $40m per year invested in players who don't even really play for us (Knight, Chandler, Dudley). Until their contracts are off the books, we're going to suck. Until we have at least one genuine star who plays at least tolerable defense, we're going to be very bad.

Based on the pre-season so far, 25 wins looks about right.

[Superbone]

Hey! A balanced take by Wormwood. I'm impressed.

[n4th4n]

Like I said before, do you have no recollection of Goran's first 2 years? He was so scared he couldn't even put the ball down more than 2-3 times in a row. And he came into the league older and more NBA ready then Bender.

I've drawn the Goran / Dragan comparison myself so I understand what you're saying. My concern is that I'm not seeing incremental improvement from Bender or Chriss. There should be a noticeable leap between year 1 and 2 and a rather large one between year 2 and 3. That's generally how it goes. Every player follows a different path but I do think there's cause for concern.

Well maybe we should wait until year 2 starts before claiming they've made no improvements.

Exactly. I think people have forgotten how extraordinarily young this roster is. The average age of our guys who are actually going to be playing is 22. Add Tyson Chandler and the average age goes up to 23.4.

Here is a reminder for everyone:

Dragan Bender is 19
Marquess Chriss is 20
Tyler Ulis is 21
Josh Jackson is 20
TJ Warren is 24
Alex Len is 24
Devin Booker is 20 (he turns 21 at the end of the month)
Eric Bledsoe is 27
Troy Daniels is 26

Take. A. Deep. Breath.

This is going to be a bumpy ride.

Edit - I just want to add, I think our biggest problem right now as a franchise is coaching. It is still unbelievable that we didn't even interview anyone besides Watson. Young coaches need time to develop just like young players, but my primary worry is that we are sacrificing the development of our players in favor of giving a chance to a young, inexperienced, and frankly uninspiring coach.

[In2ition]

This is going to be a really bad team this year. I agree

Tyson Chandler and Dudley are vets on a team going nowhere, being paid $10m per year to babysit. Len has shown signs of life in the preseason. He's also probably leaving after we didn't really offer him more than the QO. - We don't know for sure that Len is leaving, as he still has his Bird Rights. I'm not going to panic over his improved preseason play, and in fact won't panic if it continues all season long.

At PF, I love Williams... but he's out for most of the year. Chriss and Bender do look like Skita and Warrick, and that's not a compliment. Honestly, grabbing a random, vet min guy would be an improvement here. - How about a trade of Chandler, Chriss/Bender, and Miami 2018 1st for Cousins, if he becomes available?

At SF, we have a rookie (their +/- is never good), and Warren, who doesn't space the floor or play a lick of defense. Or pass the ball that well either. - I thought Warren has shown a some improvement his range this preseason and he is actually been improving quite well with his defense. Also, I don't give a crap if he doesn't improve his assist rate, as long as he's not turning it over at a rate much higher than his assist rates, and his shooting is quick and efficient and doesn't become a ball stopper. So your concerns hold no water with me here.

At SG, we have Booker (who has yet to show that he can score efficiently or play defense) and a vet min guy who might end up with a better +/- than our "star". Ouch. - He's been working on his defense this preseason and you can see a better effort. I think he does understand that he needs to improve his efficiency and if he's really committed to becoming a super star, he will improve it. It's good to see how well Daniels has been playing, no doubt, but hopefully instead of taking away or diminishing Booker, it helps to improve Booker's own play.

At PG, Bledsoe is an above average player, but not much more. There's a lot of really good PGs in the league, and he's just somewhere in that mix. Ullis is a good back up. - Agreed

Right now, we have nearly $40m per year invested in players who don't even really play for us (Knight, Chandler, Dudley). Until their contracts are off the books, we're going to suck. Until we have at least one genuine star who plays at least tolerable defense, we're going to be very bad. - I don't expect this to change overnight, but hopefully it improves across the board.

Based on the pre-season so far, 25 wins looks about right. - I agree with the way they've been playing. It's crazy how bad they look.

[Mori Chu]

It's about time to make a regular season predictions thread. Will get on that soon along with my own predictions once I have time to write them up. I'm famously bad at predicting anything, though I occasionally happen to get something right.

[O_Gardino]

It's about time to make a regular season predictions thread. Will get on that soon along with my own predictions once I have time to write them up. I'm famously bad at predicting anything, though I occasionally happen to get something right.

I need at least one more bi-polar cycle before I can make a regular season prediction.

[In2ition]

It's about time to make a regular season predictions thread. Will get on that soon along with my own predictions once I have time to write them up. I'm famously bad at predicting anything, though I occasionally happen to get something right.

I need at least one more bi-polar cycle before I can make a regular season prediction.

Haha, same here