ShelC wrote:Reggie Jackson - 5 years, 80 mil in 2015
Dennis Schroder - 4 years, 80 mil in 2016
Kyle Lowry - 3 years, 100mil in 2017
Jrue Holiday - 5yrs, 126mil in 2017
Jeff Teague - 3 years, 57 mil in 2017
Those are just a few contract signed in recent years by PGs. It's kind of hard to find a good comparison for Payton because he's a pretty dynamic PG. He's become a better shooter, but isn't really a scorer like Jackson, Lowry or Holiday. He's a great passer, maybe the best pass-first PG of that group. And he's a very strong rebounder similar to Holiday and Lowry. With today's CBA and salary structure, you might be looking at 5 years 100 mil to lock him long term. I'd love something like 4 years, 70 mil but I'm not sure is that's realistic.
I'm worried either way.
We have a habit of letting people walk (Joe Johnson), or brutally overpaying for mediocre to very bad players (Chandler, Dudley, Knight).
Yeah, it's too early to tell, but Payton has looked very good in his first few games. He put up a triple double last night. That's the 9th of his young career. Guys who can post triple doubles do NOT grow on trees. If he learns to shoot threes at a respectable rate, he will be a borderline all star, and probably better than Bledsoe's top end (Bled never really was a great distributor).
He was an RFA and we did a sign and trade. And that was 13 years ago. Yeah, it was a really stupid move the summer before where we didn't extend him, but to say we let him walk isn't accurate.
Are there more recent examples where we let good players walk and didn't instead over pay them?
Cap wrote:Save your celebration for the summer. For all we know at this point, he'll leave as a free agent, or stay on an overpay. This only becomes an effective trade if and when he have him under a good contract.
This was a good trade regardless of what comes next. We can evaluate the next move separately. The main thing here is that we have a real PG for the remainder of the season, and I think that is going to help the rest of the team develop. As a side benefit, it shows Booker that we aren't tanking on purpose this season, and maybe builds a little trust with him.
The league needs heroes, villains... and clowns. -- Aztec Sunsfan
ShelC wrote:Reggie Jackson - 5 years, 80 mil in 2015
Dennis Schroder - 4 years, 80 mil in 2016
Kyle Lowry - 3 years, 100mil in 2017
Jrue Holiday - 5yrs, 126mil in 2017
Jeff Teague - 3 years, 57 mil in 2017
Those are just a few contract signed in recent years by PGs. It's kind of hard to find a good comparison for Payton because he's a pretty dynamic PG. He's become a better shooter, but isn't really a scorer like Jackson, Lowry or Holiday. He's a great passer, maybe the best pass-first PG of that group. And he's a very strong rebounder similar to Holiday and Lowry. With today's CBA and salary structure, you might be looking at 5 years 100 mil to lock him long term. I'd love something like 4 years, 70 mil but I'm not sure is that's realistic.
The number have changed, but I think the salary structure is still the same. We can afford 3 big contracts, 2 medium ones, and the rest are small contracts.
Is Payton good enough to get one of the big contracts?
The league needs heroes, villains... and clowns. -- Aztec Sunsfan
Well we know Booker's more than likely getting the max. I think you need a top flight PG and top flight big. Booker's an exception because there typically haven't been great SGs that teams build around.
There's not a lot of cap space this summer. Lots of people in basketball are talking about how we went see the big contracts of the last two years this summer. Lou Williams just signed a 3 year 24 million dollar extension. That gives a better idea of what Payton will get.
Split T wrote:There's not a lot of cap space this summer. Lots of people in basketball are talking about how we went see the big contracts of the last two years this summer. Lou Williams just signed a 3 year 24 million dollar extension. That gives a better idea of what Payton will get.
That's a number I'd be more comfortable with instead of throwing $20 million a year at him.
Split T wrote:There's not a lot of cap space this summer. Lots of people in basketball are talking about how we went see the big contracts of the last two years this summer. Lou Williams just signed a 3 year 24 million dollar extension. That gives a better idea of what Payton will get.
I really do not want to be bidding against ourselves, which we have done a lot of. No one else was going to pay Chandler, Dudley, or Knight what we gave them. We can figure out what teams can afford to offer. Pay him what the market will bear. Given the bonanza of free agents expected in 2019, he'd be dumb to take the QO and hope for the best.
But, that's exactly what Alex Len did, and I suspect he'll get the mid-level exception.
Split T wrote:There's not a lot of cap space this summer. Lots of people in basketball are talking about how we went see the big contracts of the last two years this summer. Lou Williams just signed a 3 year 24 million dollar extension. That gives a better idea of what Payton will get.
I really do not want to be bidding against ourselves, which we have done a lot of. No one else was going to pay Chandler, Dudley, or Knight what we gave them. We can figure out what teams can afford to offer. Pay him what the market will bear. Given the bonanza of free agents expected in 2019, he'd be dumb to take the QO and hope for the best.
But, that's exactly what Alex Len did, and I suspect he'll get the mid-level exception.
I'm not sure we ever offered Len anything but the QO.
Split T wrote:There's not a lot of cap space this summer. Lots of people in basketball are talking about how we went see the big contracts of the last two years this summer. Lou Williams just signed a 3 year 24 million dollar extension. That gives a better idea of what Payton will get.
If we give Elfrid a contract like that or TJ Warren's, it's a fair deal.
I think the "big" mid level is 9 million this year, and the small is 5. Is that right?
The league needs heroes, villains... and clowns. -- Aztec Sunsfan
Ya it's something like that. I'd be willing to give Payton a 4 year deal at or just slightly above the mle. That's the most he can expect any other team to offer as no one with Cap space is going to go after him.
For all the folks who bag on McDo and hate everything he does, can we at least come together and agree that this Payton trade was a great and savvy move? A mostly worthless 2nd round pick for a half-season trial on our possible starting PG of the future, and an inside track on signing him (+ ability to match any other contract he gets elsewhere)? McDo haters, come forth. Can you swallow your pride and admit that this was a great trade?
Depends how you look at it. I wasn’t in favor of the trade because I think drafting Ayton or Doncic will have a bigger impact on the future of this franchise than Payton. If acquiring him leads to us winning a few games that we can look back on and say we likely would have lost with Ulis/Gray, then it confirms that it was another move by a GM that can’t stay on a consistent path.
If you want to build through the draft, then put in 100% effort to make sure you get the best out of it.
Not taking the draft impact into consideration, it was a great move and I actually do like what I see so far.
Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:For all the folks who bag on McDo and hate everything he does, can we at least come together and agree that this Payton trade was a great and savvy move? A mostly worthless 2nd round pick for a half-season trial on our possible starting PG of the future, and an inside track on signing him (+ ability to match any other contract he gets elsewhere)? McDo haters, come forth. Can you swallow your pride and admit that this was a great trade?
If we're grading Pass/Fail, I'll give McD a pass, because this was definitely a trade worth pulling the trigger on, considering how little we gave up.
If we're looking for a letter grade, I have to give it an Incomplete for now. If he stays on a great contract, it's an A+. If he leaves in free agency or gets s&t'ed for a second-round pick, it's a C. If he stays on an overpay, it could be worse than a C.
ShelC wrote:Reggie Jackson - 5 years, 80 mil in 2015
Dennis Schroder - 4 years, 80 mil in 2016
Kyle Lowry - 3 years, 100mil in 2017
Jrue Holiday - 5yrs, 126mil in 2017
Jeff Teague - 3 years, 57 mil in 2017
Those are just a few contract signed in recent years by PGs. It's kind of hard to find a good comparison for Payton because he's a pretty dynamic PG. He's become a better shooter, but isn't really a scorer like Jackson, Lowry or Holiday. He's a great passer, maybe the best pass-first PG of that group. And he's a very strong rebounder similar to Holiday and Lowry. With today's CBA and salary structure, you might be looking at 5 years 100 mil to lock him long term. I'd love something like 4 years, 70 mil but I'm not sure is that's realistic.
I'm worried either way.
We have a habit of letting people walk (Joe Johnson), or brutally overpaying for mediocre to very bad players (Chandler, Dudley, Knight).
Yeah, it's too early to tell, but Payton has looked very good in his first few games. He put up a triple double last night. That's the 9th of his young career. Guys who can post triple doubles do NOT grow on trees. If he learns to shoot threes at a respectable rate, he will be a borderline all star, and probably better than Bledsoe's top end (Bled never really was a great distributor).
I would rather pay him a little too much than let him go.
AmareIsGod wrote:Another good game from Payton. I'm impressed.
How many consecutive great games from Payton before we stop counting and saying. "Well, it's on only been x games. Let's not get too excited."
Mathematically? Somewhere between 25 and 30 to say with a high degree of confidence that his good games were his true output, and his bad games weren't.
AmareIsGod wrote:Another good game from Payton. I'm impressed.
How many consecutive great games from Payton before we stop counting and saying. "Well, it's on only been x games. Let's not get too excited."
Mathematically? Somewhere between 25 and 30 to say with a high degree of confidence that his good games were his true output, and his bad games weren't.
Well, then luckily we'll have a big enough sample size when it comes time to make the re-signing decision.
Couldn’t help but notice how content Elfrid is to just fall behind on the pick and roll defensively. He makes absolutely no effort to fight over the screen and stay In front of Mitchell. The lack of effort is alarming.
To be fair to him, it’s par for the course with the rest of our guards. There’s no fight in them defensively at all.
AmareIsGod wrote:Another good game from Payton. I'm impressed.
How many consecutive great games from Payton before we stop counting and saying. "Well, it's on only been x games. Let's not get too excited."
Mathematically? Somewhere between 25 and 30 to say with a high degree of confidence that his good games were his true output, and his bad games weren't.
That first year Boris Diaw spent with us, were the last 25-30 games before he got his new contract indicative of his "true output"? How about Brandon Knight's last 25-30 games in Milwaukee before the trade?
Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:For all the folks who bag on McDo and hate everything he does, can we at least come together and agree that this Payton trade was a great and savvy move? A mostly worthless 2nd round pick for a half-season trial on our possible starting PG of the future, and an inside track on signing him (+ ability to match any other contract he gets elsewhere)? McDo haters, come forth. Can you swallow your pride and admit that this was a great trade?
It was a great trade by McD. I'm fully expecting him to do the opposite of what he should do when handling this situation though.
