Game Day: Suns (18-40) @ Jazz (29-28), Wed 2/14/18

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Cap
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Re: Game Day: Suns (18-40) @ Jazz (29-28), Wed 2/14/18

Post by Cap »

Superbone wrote:
Cap wrote:
Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:
JustWinBaby wrote:
Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:I wouldn't Pay a ton for Payton.
If it is a choice between him and Ulis being our starting point guard next year, break the bank.

I cannot stand another year watching Ulis as our starting Point guard.
My post was mostly just a pun/joke. I like Payton and want to keep him.
It's better than your Emeka Okafor effort.

But not much.
Give him a break. He's working on his new dad joke skills!
Sigh. Poor Eve, she's going to have to grow up with this.

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djy2j
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Re: Game Day: Suns (18-40) @ Jazz (29-28), Wed 2/14/18

Post by djy2j »

Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:I accept that whenever Emeka joke, it might be great for me but just Okafor you.

:lol: stahhhp
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Re: Game Day: Suns (18-40) @ Jazz (29-28), Wed 2/14/18

Post by O_Gardino »

ShelC wrote:
Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:
carey wrote:$15M???? What happened to the "don't bid against yourselves" crowd? Don't look at his play in a vacuum. He was just dumped for a 2nd round pick and nearly every team has a starting PG they are happy with already. I stand by my $8M. He should not be getting more than the MLE as he is an average level NBA player. Don't let the fact that we are starved for competent PG play effect your judgement here.
I agree that we shouldn't bid against ourselves on Payton. I would not want to offer him a $15m/year contract out of the gate with no competition for him at that price. I'd rather offer him a much lower number, say $9-10m/yr, and then if he goes looking for other deals, I wouldn't match him if he gets much higher than that. I just meant that it might take that much to ultimately keep him, because some team might offer him $15m/yr to try to steal him. I have mixed feelings about handing him a huge contract, but I do think I'd pay him more than you seem to be willing to pay him. I just want a solid young stable PG helping run our team, and I have really gotten tired of the endless revolving door of G-Leaguers and nobodies we have been trotting out. I think it'd be worth spending a few bucks to lock down that position going forward for several years.
Agreed. I think he can be a top 8-10 PG in the league at some point but more importantly, he can make the younger guys like Chriss, Bender, Jackson and even Booker and TJ better by making the game easier for them. Maybe FOs are going to freeze some guys out to reign in contracts but all it takes is one. The Knicks gave THJ 70 because the Hawks weren't going over 50-55. We need PG stability and Payton can add that.

And Lou Williams...nice player, carved out a niche for himself in the L but he's also a 31 year old journeyman at this point and the Clips blew their team up. They both offer each other some stability there.

Would I love Payton at 8-9 a year? Absolutely. I just think 12-15 is more in line with the market. Schroder's contract averages out at 15.5 over 4 which has 62 guaranteed and the rest is incentives. Or we can see how the draft goes and see if he plays out the year as an RFA.
Well said.
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Superbone
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Re: Game Day: Suns (18-40) @ Jazz (29-28), Wed 2/14/18

Post by Superbone »

O_Gardino wrote:
ShelC wrote:
Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:
carey wrote:$15M???? What happened to the "don't bid against yourselves" crowd? Don't look at his play in a vacuum. He was just dumped for a 2nd round pick and nearly every team has a starting PG they are happy with already. I stand by my $8M. He should not be getting more than the MLE as he is an average level NBA player. Don't let the fact that we are starved for competent PG play effect your judgement here.
I agree that we shouldn't bid against ourselves on Payton. I would not want to offer him a $15m/year contract out of the gate with no competition for him at that price. I'd rather offer him a much lower number, say $9-10m/yr, and then if he goes looking for other deals, I wouldn't match him if he gets much higher than that. I just meant that it might take that much to ultimately keep him, because some team might offer him $15m/yr to try to steal him. I have mixed feelings about handing him a huge contract, but I do think I'd pay him more than you seem to be willing to pay him. I just want a solid young stable PG helping run our team, and I have really gotten tired of the endless revolving door of G-Leaguers and nobodies we have been trotting out. I think it'd be worth spending a few bucks to lock down that position going forward for several years.
Agreed. I think he can be a top 8-10 PG in the league at some point but more importantly, he can make the younger guys like Chriss, Bender, Jackson and even Booker and TJ better by making the game easier for them. Maybe FOs are going to freeze some guys out to reign in contracts but all it takes is one. The Knicks gave THJ 70 because the Hawks weren't going over 50-55. We need PG stability and Payton can add that.

And Lou Williams...nice player, carved out a niche for himself in the L but he's also a 31 year old journeyman at this point and the Clips blew their team up. They both offer each other some stability there.

Would I love Payton at 8-9 a year? Absolutely. I just think 12-15 is more in line with the market. Schroder's contract averages out at 15.5 over 4 which has 62 guaranteed and the rest is incentives. Or we can see how the draft goes and see if he plays out the year as an RFA.
Well said.
Agreed. I'd happily take Payton at 12-15. Hated the Bledsoe and Knight deals but Payton fits in well with #TheTimeline and he's a willing distributor, well-rounded basketball player, and seems to be a genuinely good person.
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Shabazz
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Re: Game Day: Suns (18-40) @ Jazz (29-28), Wed 2/14/18

Post by Shabazz »

There's no reason to pay $12-15 for Payton. We can probably lock him in for $9M. The market isn't what PGs got two summers ago, it's what teams are willing to spend this summer.

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Superbone
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Re: Game Day: Suns (18-40) @ Jazz (29-28), Wed 2/14/18

Post by Superbone »

Shabazz wrote:There's no reason to pay $12-15 for Payton. We can probably lock him in for $9M. The market isn't what PGs got two summers ago, it's what teams are willing to spend this summer.
All the better.
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carey
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Re: Game Day: Suns (18-40) @ Jazz (29-28), Wed 2/14/18

Post by carey »

Would I rather have Payton at $12M than Knight at $15M? Sure. My point is... we are not going to have both of them and try to be a player in FA. Our cap situation is actually not great with Knight, Dudley, Chandler, and now TJ's deal. There's still Booker's extension which will be signed this Summer and hit in '19-'20. We can dump a contract with one of the firsts we're hoarding which would help. I guess it depends on how much you like Payton. All I will say is be careful of the 30-game sample size.
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Cap
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Re: Game Day: Suns (18-40) @ Jazz (29-28), Wed 2/14/18

Post by Cap »

Shabazz wrote:There's no reason to pay $12-15 for Payton. We can probably lock him in for $9M. The market isn't what PGs got two summers ago, it's what teams are willing to spend this summer.
Paying $9M for Payton: awesome
Paying $23M combined for Payton and Knight: not so awesome
Complaining about Knight on phx-suns.net: always awesome

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Mori Chu
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Re: Game Day: Suns (18-40) @ Jazz (29-28), Wed 2/14/18

Post by Mori Chu »

What is the rookie salary going to be for the #1 pick this year from the 2018 draft? Isn't it like $6m? If you want to pay Payton $9m/year, can you explain why you barely consider him to be worth above rookie salary?

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Re: Game Day: Suns (18-40) @ Jazz (29-28), Wed 2/14/18

Post by Superbone »

Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:What is the rookie salary going to be for the #1 pick this year from the 2018 draft? Isn't it like $6m? If you want to pay Payton $9m/year, can you explain why you barely consider him to be worth above rookie salary?
No, it's over 8m.
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Re: Game Day: Suns (18-40) @ Jazz (29-28), Wed 2/14/18

Post by Shabazz »

Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:What is the rookie salary going to be for the #1 pick this year from the 2018 draft? Isn't it like $6m? If you want to pay Payton $9m/year, can you explain why you barely consider him to be worth above rookie salary?
It's a tough business. If the best offer Payton will realistically get from another team is the mid-level (around $8M), then we have no reason to offer him 1.5-2x that. If there's a team out there that wants to offer him $15M per, then we have matching rights and can make a decision at that time. Restricted free agency works in our favor here.

It's McDonough's job to read the market and make an offer accordingly.

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Re: Game Day: Suns (18-40) @ Jazz (29-28), Wed 2/14/18

Post by Split T »

Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:What is the rookie salary going to be for the #1 pick this year from the 2018 draft? Isn't it like $6m? If you want to pay Payton $9m/year, can you explain why you barely consider him to be worth above rookie salary?
Supply and demand. Low demand for PG right now with lots of teams set at the position. And not very much money available. I'd match at above 9 million but I wouldn't offer him a deal higher than that.

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Shabazz
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Re: Game Day: Suns (18-40) @ Jazz (29-28), Wed 2/14/18

Post by Shabazz »

This is similar to Alex Len's contract situation. Turned out, there was no market for Len. How foolish would we feel now if we had given him $10-12M per year? And that offer would have been borderline insulting if you're comparing it to the Mozgov and Biyombo contracts.

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Cap
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Re: Game Day: Suns (18-40) @ Jazz (29-28), Wed 2/14/18

Post by Cap »

Shabazz wrote:This is similar to Alex Len's contract situation. Turned out, there was no market for Len. How foolish would we feel now if we had given him $10-12M per year? And that offer would have been borderline insulting if you're comparing it to the Mozgov and Biyombo contracts.
McD's taken a lot of flack for how he handled Len last summer. Maybe it’s time to re-evaluate that.

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Re: Game Day: Suns (18-40) @ Jazz (29-28), Wed 2/14/18

Post by carey »

Cap wrote:
McD's taken a lot of flack for how he handled Len last summer. Maybe it’s time to re-evaluate that.
I think I might be tuning people out. Did McDonough take flack for not signing Len last Summer?
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Re: Game Day: Suns (18-40) @ Jazz (29-28), Wed 2/14/18

Post by Aztec Sunsfan »

carey wrote:
Cap wrote:
McD's taken a lot of flack for how he handled Len last summer. Maybe it’s time to re-evaluate that.
I think I might be tuning people out. Did McDonough take flack for not signing Len last Summer?
Every time Len has a good game, McD takes flack for not resigning him, and every time Len has a bad game, McD takes flack for wasting a precious 5th pick. Every time Len doesn’t play at all, we also give McD flack...

So it’s not about you tuning people out... it’s just that no matter what, some people likes to vent on McD, because even if the popcorn was overcooked, everything starts from the Top!!!

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Re: Game Day: Suns (18-40) @ Jazz (29-28), Wed 2/14/18

Post by Indy »

Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:What is the rookie salary going to be for the #1 pick this year from the 2018 draft? Isn't it like $6m? If you want to pay Payton $9m/year, can you explain why you barely consider him to be worth above rookie salary?
If he was able to re-enter the draft, nobody would take him #1. Bad comparison.

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Re: Game Day: Suns (18-40) @ Jazz (29-28), Wed 2/14/18

Post by Hermen »

Indy wrote:
Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:What is the rookie salary going to be for the #1 pick this year from the 2018 draft? Isn't it like $6m? If you want to pay Payton $9m/year, can you explain why you barely consider him to be worth above rookie salary?
If he was able to re-enter the draft, nobody would take him #1. Bad comparison.
Yep, it's not just any rookie salary. It's the #1 pick salary. I don't think Payton is better than most #1 picks are in their first 4 years. Rookie salary then drops rather quickly for later picks (reference: https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/info/rookie_scale)

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Mori Chu
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Re: Game Day: Suns (18-40) @ Jazz (29-28), Wed 2/14/18

Post by Mori Chu »

Indy wrote:
Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:What is the rookie salary going to be for the #1 pick this year from the 2018 draft? Isn't it like $6m? If you want to pay Payton $9m/year, can you explain why you barely consider him to be worth above rookie salary?
If he was able to re-enter the draft, nobody would take him #1. Bad comparison.
My point isn't that Payton would be a #1 pick in the draft. It's that you can't really expect him to sign to stay here on what is essentially a rookie-scale contract. That's all I was saying. Was trying to give some perspective to how the contract numbers have shot way up since the cap grew so much. With the cap being, what, $109m, it isn't actually a very big percentage of the cap to give a guy like Payton $12-15m/year. It really isn't.

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Re: Game Day: Suns (18-40) @ Jazz (29-28), Wed 2/14/18

Post by Mori Chu »

Cap wrote:
Shabazz wrote:This is similar to Alex Len's contract situation. Turned out, there was no market for Len. How foolish would we feel now if we had given him $10-12M per year? And that offer would have been borderline insulting if you're comparing it to the Mozgov and Biyombo contracts.
McD's taken a lot of flack for how he handled Len last summer. Maybe it’s time to re-evaluate that.
The biggest argument that McDo did the right thing not signing Len is that we are likely to draft a stud center this year, and Len wouldn't have fit with that plan. But I still think Len's quality of play merited a contract offer in the $10-12m/year range, and that he is an asset that we have mismanaged. I would have preferred to sign him, start him, play him big minutes this year. And then if we still wanted to draft a stud center, fine, trade Len. I bet he would have gotten some interest if he'd played starters' minutes.

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