Game Day: Suns (18-40) @ Jazz (29-28), Wed 2/14/18

[specialsauce]

Len is the perfect example of us overvaluing our own players. We actually convinced ourselves last year he wasn’t getting PT because the org was hiding him from the league so we could resign him. Well he is still on this team for a reason. 3 coaches on this team have benched him and played him sporadically for a reason. He’s not that good, he’s horribly inconsistent and still remains foul prone. He’s a center of 15 years ago.

[Indy]

What is the rookie salary going to be for the #1 pick this year from the 2018 draft? Isn't it like $6m? If you want to pay Payton $9m/year, can you explain why you barely consider him to be worth above rookie salary?

If he was able to re-enter the draft, nobody would take him #1. Bad comparison.

My point isn't that Payton would be a #1 pick in the draft. It's that you can't really expect him to sign to stay here on what is essentially a rookie-scale contract. That's all I was saying. Was trying to give some perspective to how the contract numbers have shot way up since the cap grew so much. With the cap being, what, $109m, it isn't actually a very big percentage of the cap to give a guy like Payton $12-15m/year. It really isn't.

He was just given away because the team that drafted him didn't want to pay him. And with what Lou Williams just got, and the regret around the league from two summers ago, I would be really surprised to see another team offer him 12-15M. BUt I can totally see us doing that...

[carey]

He was just given away because the team that drafted him didn't want to pay him. And with what Lou Williams just got, and the regret around the league from two summers ago, I would be really surprised to see another team offer him 12-15M. BUt I can totally see us doing that...

If you can see the Suns doing that then certainly you can see another team doing it as well? We can't be the only doofuses in the league, right?!

[BlaCkAdDa]

Most centres take time to reach their peak.. Len isn't there yet. Who knows if he will get there.

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[jonh]

Most centres take time to reach their peak.. Len isn't there yet. Who knows if he will get there.

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All players have a peak--the question is just how low is his peak, and how much is that peak worth. Personally, if we aren't able to snag a star center in the draft, I am fine paying him 10-12 a year and having him start. I think he is an average, but not spectacular center that can continue to develop. We tend to let these kind of guys go a season or 2 too early.

[1tinsoldier]

he is an asset that we have mismanaged. I would have preferred to sign him, start him, play him big minutes this year. And then if we still wanted to draft a stud center, fine, trade Len. I bet he would have gotten some interest if he'd played starters' minutes.

that's my take.
he does alternately look like a stud and a dud on any given night.
but it's hard to ignore a likely correlation between his play inconsistency and his playing inconsistency

ultimately, i'm willing to trust the coach and management's evaluation of him
but i can't help but wonder if it will be another mishandled loss
like those that resulted in us being forced to sell low on Dragic (all-star), Thomas (a 2017 league leader), and Bledsoe

[O_Gardino]

He was just given away because the team that drafted him didn't want to pay him. And with what Lou Williams just got, and the regret around the league from two summers ago, I would be really surprised to see another team offer him 12-15M. BUt I can totally see us doing that...

If you can see the Suns doing that then certainly you can see another team doing it as well? We can't be the only doofuses in the league, right?!

We can match any offer, so it doesn't really matter what other teams offer. The Suns just need to know what their first offer will be and what their top match would be.

To answer your question more directly, most of the other doofuses are over the cap, and can't offer more than the mid level exception. The rest just drafted PG's in the last 2 drafts. Maybe the hawks or Jazz make a play for him.

[specialsauce]

It's his 5th year in the league! You guys have to just give it up at some point. I cringe that we're going to be hearing the same unrelenting hope and deniability in Chriss. He's not going to just suddenly grow up into an above average center. He'll never even be Robin Lopez, who has consistently been a defensive force and stays out of foul trouble. -- Admit it!

[Nodack]

I thought Len was having his best year finally gett Ng it and playing pretty good. This is the Suns. How many All Star Centers have we had? Shaq? He was pretty much washed up at that point. Besides that who? We get a decent one and dump them looking for the Star one and end up with a revolving door. Lopez was fine, the Polish hammer was fine. Len is fine. Constant turnover is not fine.

[The Bobster]

I thought Len was having his best year finally gett Ng it and playing pretty good. This is the Suns. How many All Star Centers have we had? Shaq? He was pretty much washed up at that point. Besides that who? We get a decent one and dump them looking for the Star one and end up with a revolving door. Lopez was fine, the Polish hammer was fine. Len is fine. Constant turnover is not fine.

Alvan Adams. That's about it.

I like Len. He's still only 24 and he's finally come around to being a contributor and they've apparently given up on him.

[Split T]

Amare was a center here

[LazarusLong]

" He'll never even be Robin Lopez, who has consistently been a defensive force and stays out of foul trouble. "

Let's look at some numbers,
In almost five years with the Suns, Len has averaged 5.0 fouls per 36 minutes.
Lopez, in his four years with the Suns, also averaged 5.0 fouls per 36 minutes.
So much for staying out of foul trouble.

Per 36 minutes, Lopez averaged 14.4 pts, 8.2 rebs, 2.1 blocks, 0.4 assts and 0.6 steals while with the Suns.
Len averaged 12.9 pts, 11.7 rebs, 1.9 blocks, 1.4 assts and 0.9 steals.

Len has a slight edge in 3 of 5 categories, all while playing with some historically bad Suns teams.
He never played with Nash or Hill or next to Amare.

And he endured Watson, who tried to make a freaking power forward out of him.
If he'd have started more, instead of Chandler, who management has allowed to make a farewell tour, I bet Len's stats would be even better.

[O_Gardino]

Dudes, it's over with Len. Not because we are giving up on him, or because of his spotty play, but because of the botched relationship. He doesn't want to be here. He has been very clear about that. If he gets any other offer from any other team, he will take it.

[Mori Chu]

Dudes, it's over with Len. Not because we are giving up on him, or because of his spotty play, but because of the botched relationship. He doesn't want to be here. He has been very clear about that. If he gets any other offer from any other team, he will take it.

That's all fine and true. But don't also say, "And it's fine that he's leaving, because he sucks." He doesn't suck. Despite very little mentorship, spotty minutes, confusingly changing roles, etc., he has improved and put up decent numbers for a starting NBA center. Don't tell me Len is leaving because he is bad. He is leaving because we decided to punt our relationship and contract negotiation with him and just let him walk.

[O_Gardino]

Dudes, it's over with Len. Not because we are giving up on him, or because of his spotty play, but because of the botched relationship. He doesn't want to be here. He has been very clear about that. If he gets any other offer from any other team, he will take it.

That's all fine and true. But don't also say, "And it's fine that he's leaving, because he sucks." He doesn't suck. Despite very little mentorship, spotty minutes, confusingly changing roles, etc., he has improved and put up decent numbers for a starting NBA center. Don't tell me Len is leaving because he is bad. He is leaving because we decided to punt our relationship and contract negotiation with him and just let him walk.

I honestly don't think the Suns punted. I think this is their best effort at player relations.

[Split T]

This Len debate is fascinating to me. I don't think he sucks, but I don't think he's worth re-signing. His best bet is to probably go be a backup on a team that plays a traditional 5 like him. He'd probably do well backing up Gobert in Utah.

I just don't see him being very useful to us. He's not good enough defensively to cover up our poor perimeter defenders and he doesn't provide any help defending the perimeter. Offensively he doesn't do much other than finish a few easy buckets at the rim. Any kind of physical play throws him out of rhythm.

So he's similar but not as good as Gobert/Whiteside/Jordan/Drummond. He doesn't provide elite rim protection and offensively he's not a good rim runner or lob threat and those are two of the three most important traits those guys provide. Rebounding is the other, which Len is good at.

I'm not paying money for that. We complain about McD's lack of vision a lot, but one thing he has focused on is versatile players, especially bigs, that can switch and play multiple positions. Bender, Chriss, and Jackson all have their faults, but they are all fairly capable of playing multiple positions. Len is not. He's a 5 and only a 5 and not a very well rounded 5 either. That plus the fact that there is 3 very versatile 5's in this upcoming draft (Ayton, JJJ, and Bamba) probably means McD has no interest in bringing Len back either.

[specialsauce]

He’s equally as bad as Chandler in PnR defense. Doesn’t have the foot speed

[specialsauce]

Dudes, it's over with Len. Not because we are giving up on him, or because of his spotty play, but because of the botched relationship. He doesn't want to be here. He has been very clear about that. If he gets any other offer from any other team, he will take it.

That's all fine and true. But don't also say, "And it's fine that he's leaving, because he sucks." He doesn't suck. Despite very little mentorship, spotty minutes, confusingly changing roles, etc., he has improved and put up decent numbers for a starting NBA center. Don't tell me Len is leaving because he is bad. He is leaving because we decided to punt our relationship and contract negotiation with him and just let him walk.

He’s been here 5 years and can’t seem to get consistent PT through 3 head coaches, it’s all a ploy by coaching right, all 3 missed on him?

[Indy]

" He'll never even be Robin Lopez, who has consistently been a defensive force and stays out of foul trouble. "

Let's look at some numbers,
In almost five years with the Suns, Len has averaged 5.0 fouls per 36 minutes.
Lopez, in his four years with the Suns, also averaged 5.0 fouls per 36 minutes.
So much for staying out of foul trouble.

Per 36 minutes, Lopez averaged 14.4 pts, 8.2 rebs, 2.1 blocks, 0.4 assts and 0.6 steals while with the Suns.
Len averaged 12.9 pts, 11.7 rebs, 1.9 blocks, 1.4 assts and 0.9 steals.

Len has a slight edge in 3 of 5 categories, all while playing with some historically bad Suns teams.
He never played with Nash or Hill or next to Amare.

And he endured Watson, who tried to make a freaking power forward out of him.
If he'd have started more, instead of Chandler, who management has allowed to make a farewell tour, I bet Len's stats would be even better.

Thank you for using facts here, DC

[ShelC]

I'm kind of indifferent to Len at this point. I think we failed to develop him properly and now it's probably best both parties move on. I wouldn't be opposed to keeping him as a big body off the bench for 5-7 mil a year if he's down to stay, but I feel like he doesn't move the needle for us either way.