Game Day: Cavs (38-28) @ Suns (19-49), Tues 3/13/18

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n4th4n
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Re: Game Day: Cavs (38-28) @ Suns (19-49), Tues 3/13/18

Post by n4th4n »

specialsauce wrote:I can’t wait for 5 years from now when finally age can’t be used as an excuse for why these nutless guys remain nutless.

You don’t hear a whisper around here about Archie any more, who many had a hard on for
It so stupid to take such a hard ass approach on Bender. He is 20. He is going to keep improving. That is what young players do. Right now, he is probably the worst version of himself that we will ever see in the NBA. If he improves even a little he is going to be a service big who plays solid D and shoots 38-40% from three. THAT IS AN EXTREMELY VALUABLE NBA PLAYER. And that is his worst case. I know he can be frustrating, but common. Have a little perspective.

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Cap
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Re: Game Day: Cavs (38-28) @ Suns (19-49), Tues 3/13/18

Post by Cap »

Split T wrote:Archie isn't a good comparison. He was a late 1st who couldn't shoot and never figured out how. And I don't remember any big supporters claiming he was a future star.
Here? Not that I recall. In the Suns’ FO?
Suns Shut Down Any Archie Goodwin Suitors, Keep Him At Core Of Future
JAN 21, 2015 8:42 PM


The Phoenix Suns have made clear to Archie Goodwin and around the NBA that the franchise has the second-year guard as a cornerstone of its future, shutting down interested suitors, league sources told RealGM.

Whenever contacted with interest from major- and minor- market teams, the Suns have shown no willingness to move Goodwin, promising that he’s a major part of their talent core.
https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/2 ... -Of-Future

Kinda vague and anonymously sourced, so I don’t know how much there was to it. But taken at face value, it suggests McD was a big supporter.

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specialsauce
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Re: Game Day: Cavs (38-28) @ Suns (19-49), Tues 3/13/18

Post by specialsauce »

n4th4n wrote:
specialsauce wrote:I can’t wait for 5 years from now when finally age can’t be used as an excuse for why these nutless guys remain nutless.

You don’t hear a whisper around here about Archie any more, who many had a hard on for
It so stupid to take such a hard ass approach on Bender. He is 20. He is going to keep improving. That is what young players do. Right now, he is probably the worst version of himself that we will ever see in the NBA. If he improves even a little he is going to be a service big who plays solid D and shoots 38-40% from three. THAT IS AN EXTREMELY VALUABLE NBA PLAYER. And that is his worst case. I know he can be frustrating, but common. Have a little perspective.

I don’t see the improvement you speak of. To keep improving, one first must begin improving. I haven’t seen any sustained improvement. You play 25-30 mpg you’re bound to find yourself a good game or two. He has not had a stretch where his play has impressed beyond a game here and there sandwiched between some of the worst and most scared and disinterested performances I’ve ever seen.

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specialsauce
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Re: Game Day: Cavs (38-28) @ Suns (19-49), Tues 3/13/18

Post by specialsauce »

Aztec Sunsfan wrote:
specialsauce wrote:I can’t wait for 5 years from now when finally age can’t be used as an excuse for why these nutless guys remain nutless.

You don’t hear a whisper around here about Archie any more, who many had a hard on for
No doubt the team is lucky to have fans like you, wishing them the best...

Really? Are you going to wait that long angling for some bogus bragging rights?

No doubt the team deserves fans like me, who don’t just slobber over whatever product they put out on the court and sit back and look at it from an objective NBA perspective. Not a team in this league is envious of Chriss, Bender, or anyone on this team outside of Booker, Jackson and Warren.

Tired of people being content with what we have. You should demand more of your team instead of looking at it as a complete homer.

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specialsauce
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Re: Game Day: Cavs (38-28) @ Suns (19-49), Tues 3/13/18

Post by specialsauce »

Split T wrote:Archie isn't a good comparison. He was a late 1st who couldn't shoot and never figured out how. And I don't remember any big supporters claiming he was a future star. There is a difference between thinking we should play our young guys to see what they are and thinking we should play our young guys because we think they are the future. If you want to give up on bender, that's fine, but it seems pointless. I can't imagine his value is very high at all and it doesn't hurt us to keep him on the roster. His salary is low and he's signed for 3 more years.

What's the best case scenario in giving up on Bender? Someone gives us a 2nd rounder and we get lucky and draft a steal while Bender never amounts to anything.

Worst case scenario: We decline the option years on benders rookie contract, we get nothing, he signs with a contender and plays a significant role on a title contender.

Compare that with the best and worst case scenarios if we keep him and it makes no sense. I'm willing to wait it out and see if he turns into a decent role player over picking up another 2nd round pick or late 1st. If he doesn't amount to anything in 2 years, just let him walk.
Archie is a good comparison. Many on this board touted his abilities and said well he’s still young, he’s still only 20, still only 21, still only 22. Plain and simple once an entire year and offseason goes by and you see NO improvement in their weaknesses, it’s time to move on.

Good players work on their weaknesses during the year and offseason. Bit players are content to stay where they’re at with their skills. Bender is never going to be more than a 3 and D player. He’s a big man that doesn’t care to rebound. He is not tough. He is too big to play a swing position but too soft to play at the 4 or 5. I wouldn’t trade him for nothing, but I wouldn’t hesitate for a second to include him with the Miami pick to move up in the draft or to get an established player.

Chriss on the other hand I see as addition by subtraction. Id trade him for cash considerations.

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Split T
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Re: Game Day: Cavs (38-28) @ Suns (19-49), Tues 3/13/18

Post by Split T »

Well he was still young. There's no reason to completely give up on 20 year olds because they haven't figured it out. Sure, in Archie's case it turns out we could have cut him loose at 20 and been fine, but that's not always the case.

No one here is saying that bender is definitely a star, we just think it's crazy to give up on him at 20 years old when it's basically his rookie year. He may not amount to much, but to say the book is already written on him at age 20 is just crazy. I don't understand how you can't see that, but it is what it is.

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specialsauce
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Re: Game Day: Cavs (38-28) @ Suns (19-49), Tues 3/13/18

Post by specialsauce »

Split T wrote:Well he was still young. There's no reason to completely give up on 20 year olds because they haven't figured it out. Sure, in Archie's case it turns out we could have cut him loose at 20 and been fine, but that's not always the case.

No one here is saying that bender is definitely a star, we just think it's crazy to give up on him at 20 years old when it's basically his rookie year. He may not amount to much, but to say the book is already written on him at age 20 is just crazy. I don't understand how you can't see that, but it is what it is.
If he didn’t have a shot I’d say he could develop it. If he didn’t have a left hand I’d say he could develop it. Same with ballhandling in general, defense or any other skill.

You can’t develop desire and testicular fortitude. He just doesn’t have it. Jackson and Booker did from day 1. So did an 18 year old Amare. Even Joe Johnson was aggressive taking it to the basket as a rookie. He don’t got it.

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Nodack
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Re: Game Day: Cavs (38-28) @ Suns (19-49), Tues 3/13/18

Post by Nodack »

Kinda vague and anonymously sourced, so I don’t know how much there was to it. But taken at face value, it suggests McD was a big supporter.
As an owner I would say every single one of my players were a cornerstone of the franchise publicly. You want all of your players to think you have confidence in them. It would be dumb to have a Trump owner who publicly berates the players and threatens them. "That Bender guy is such a low energy guy and has absolutely no skills. I don't know why we ever picked him. His days are definitely numbered." What message does that send?

We all hope the young players pan out. You don't know right away. It is like gambling and NO owner can tell the future. Some 2nd rounders turn into super stars and some #1 picks are busts.

Jackson was a big disappointment for me most of the season. I expected more. Since the All Star break he seems have gotten a lot better and figured some things out. Chriss and Bender have also disappointed me somewhat but both have had some good games. I am not going to complain about why they are on the team. They are on the team because they were draft picks who showed potential. They may or may not work out but, It's too early to call them busts imo.

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specialsauce
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Re: Game Day: Cavs (38-28) @ Suns (19-49), Tues 3/13/18

Post by specialsauce »

It’s been 2 years with no improvement in either of their weaknesses and minimal improvement in their strengths. 2 years! Josh took a normal amount of time to show improvement. These guys just don’t have it. It’s not going to suddenly happen miraculously. They’ve had 2 years in this league to show any sort of improvement.

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Re: Game Day: Cavs (38-28) @ Suns (19-49), Tues 3/13/18

Post by djy2j »

Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:I am going to keep repeating this.

If you want to trash Bender, or any other young player on the roster, you need to look at their age and experience.

Bender is 20 years old. 20. He was born in 1997. He was 2 weeks old when the movie "Titanic" came out in theaters. He came to the NBA with minimal pro hoops experience. He's really young, is my point.

If you give up on him now, you are giving up very early.
Dragan has been playing professionally since he was 15. Not high school or college. Professionally. And in one of the better leagues in Europe. Not the same competition as the NBA but he's had a head start on most of the kids drafted with him. I will see a #4 pick who's ceiling is a role player as a bust. That's just me.

"They are who we thought they were" comes to mind when thinking about Bender and Chriss. I personally want better.
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Re: Game Day: Cavs (38-28) @ Suns (19-49), Tues 3/13/18

Post by INFORMER »

I'm ok with trading Josh Jackson in the right deal.
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specialsauce
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Re: Game Day: Cavs (38-28) @ Suns (19-49), Tues 3/13/18

Post by specialsauce »

I’m okay with trading anyone but Booker.

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Re: Game Day: Cavs (38-28) @ Suns (19-49), Tues 3/13/18

Post by virtual9mm »

7'1" 3 and D players are hugely valuable right now, so even if Bender maxes out as a Frye he would still be a key role player. What frustrates me is how much more he could do. But I am willing to be patient.

Jackson does look like Drexler. If you trade him...you had better be getting Jordan back.

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specialsauce
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Re: Game Day: Cavs (38-28) @ Suns (19-49), Tues 3/13/18

Post by specialsauce »

He does not guard like he’s 7’1. He’s not going to guard the opposing team center. He’s not hugely valuable. Calling him Channing Frye is an insult to Channing. Channing played much bigger and has always been a tough player at least. Bender went to help Steven Adams up after Adams was manhandling Chandler and Booker and talking shit to them. Booker slapped his hand away and said what the hell are you doing. I’ll never forget it. He’s the softest player maybe in the league.

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Re: Game Day: Cavs (38-28) @ Suns (19-49), Tues 3/13/18

Post by INFORMER »

I think labeling Bender as a 3&D guy is a bit premature. He has the potential, but right now he is only a decent 3-point shooter; he isn't stopping anyone.
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n4th4n
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Re: Game Day: Cavs (38-28) @ Suns (19-49), Tues 3/13/18

Post by n4th4n »

specialsauce wrote:
Aztec Sunsfan wrote:
specialsauce wrote:I can’t wait for 5 years from now when finally age can’t be used as an excuse for why these nutless guys remain nutless.

You don’t hear a whisper around here about Archie any more, who many had a hard on for
No doubt the team is lucky to have fans like you, wishing them the best...

Really? Are you going to wait that long angling for some bogus bragging rights?

No doubt the team deserves fans like me, who don’t just slobber over whatever product they put out on the court and sit back and look at it from an objective NBA perspective. Not a team in this league is envious of Chriss, Bender, or anyone on this team outside of Booker, Jackson and Warren.

Tired of people being content with what we have. You should demand more of your team instead of looking at it as a complete homer.
No one here has been slobbering over the product on the court this year. Stop it.This board is pretty well grounded in realism. I don't think anyone here even expects Bender to become an all star. But 20-year-olds grow. That is fact. And some players develop slower than others. We just have a little more vision and patience than you, that is all. Some people can see beyond what is right in front of their face. Giving up on Bender *at this point in his career* is moronic.

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specialsauce
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Re: Game Day: Cavs (38-28) @ Suns (19-49), Tues 3/13/18

Post by specialsauce »

n4th4n wrote:
specialsauce wrote:
Aztec Sunsfan wrote:
specialsauce wrote:I can’t wait for 5 years from now when finally age can’t be used as an excuse for why these nutless guys remain nutless.

You don’t hear a whisper around here about Archie any more, who many had a hard on for
No doubt the team is lucky to have fans like you, wishing them the best...

Really? Are you going to wait that long angling for some bogus bragging rights?

No doubt the team deserves fans like me, who don’t just slobber over whatever product they put out on the court and sit back and look at it from an objective NBA perspective. Not a team in this league is envious of Chriss, Bender, or anyone on this team outside of Booker, Jackson and Warren.

Tired of people being content with what we have. You should demand more of your team instead of looking at it as a complete homer.
No one here has been slobbering over the product on the court this year. Stop it.This board is pretty well grounded in realism. I don't think anyone here even expects Bender to become an all star. But 20-year-olds grow. That is fact. And some players develop slower than others. We just have a little more vision and patience than you, that is all. Some people can see beyond what is right in front of their face. Giving up on Bender *at this point in his career* is moronic.
Substitute Lens name for Bender and it’s a flashback 5 years ago. The same Len who continues to underwhelm despite 4 coaching changes.

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Shabazz
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Re: Game Day: Cavs (38-28) @ Suns (19-49), Tues 3/13/18

Post by Shabazz »

specialsauce wrote:It’s been 2 years with no improvement in either of their weaknesses and minimal improvement in their strengths. 2 years! Josh took a normal amount of time to show improvement. These guys just don’t have it. It’s not going to suddenly happen miraculously. They’ve had 2 years in this league to show any sort of improvement.
Going from a 27% 3-point shooter to a 38%er on much higher volume is not improvement?

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Shabazz
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Re: Game Day: Cavs (38-28) @ Suns (19-49), Tues 3/13/18

Post by Shabazz »

I think Boris Diaw is one reasonable comp for Bender on a few levels.

I'm sure Atlanta fans were going nuts watching Diaw pass up open layups on those awful Hawks teams as he averaged 4.5 and 4.8 PPG (as a 21 and 22 year old - 1 and 2 years older than Bender is now). Then he got traded to a team with a lot of talent around him + some natural growth and all of a sudden he was the MIP and a key part of a special 05-06 Suns team as a 23 year old. I can easily envision Bender averaging 13/6/6/1.5 on a good team as a 23 year old.

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INFORMER
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Re: Game Day: Cavs (38-28) @ Suns (19-49), Tues 3/13/18

Post by INFORMER »

You always put too much emphasis on age, 'bazz, but your general point has merit.
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