Of course it is, when you sub Ulis in instead of Harrelson, or Dudley for Jackson when they are clearly entering in rythm,I just read with Zach Lowe how Memphis is playing a triple PF lineup in long stretches (playing the roster) but it’s ok if you want to push your point to the extreme.specialsauce wrote:Can you give me an example of an intentional tank this year? Playing our roster is not tanking.
Game Day: Suns (19-53) @ Cavs (42-29), Fri 3/23/18
- Aztec Sunsfan
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Re: Game Day: Suns (19-53) @ Cavs (42-29), Fri 3/23/18
Last edited by Aztec Sunsfan on Sun Mar 25, 2018 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- specialsauce
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Re: Game Day: Suns (19-53) @ Cavs (42-29), Fri 3/23/18
That’s a huge stretch. You think of all people Jay Triano is intentionally losing by the timing of his rotation and substitutions ? Lol. Sorry, I have to say that I don’t see it. You really think that the amount of minutes he is giving to Harrison vs Ulis, or to Dudley is what is causing us to lose games we would otherwise win? Come on. You realize that last game Dudley was by far the best +\- on the court?
Re: Game Day: Suns (19-53) @ Cavs (42-29), Fri 3/23/18
Again, nobody in the NBA is losing on purpose. Coaching could be bad, players can be bad, both, but nobody would sit back and throw a game for a draft pick. No chance.
Jones and Vogel gotta go.
- Aztec Sunsfan
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Re: Game Day: Suns (19-53) @ Cavs (42-29), Fri 3/23/18
I was giving a couple examples, read again, I was not saying we have lost any game we were due to win, but that occasionally we are deliberately careless to dismiss any possibility but hey, let's give Dudley an extension because he had a nice game!!!specialsauce wrote:That’s a huge stretch. You think of all people Jay Triano is intentionally losing by the timing of his rotation and substitutions ? Lol. Sorry, I have to say that I don’t see it. You really think that the amount of minutes he is giving to Harrison vs Ulis, or to Dudley is what is causing us to lose games we would otherwise win? Come on. You realize that last game Dudley was by far the best +\- on the court?
Sorry that you can’t see beyond your myopic prejudices, Lol.
- specialsauce
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Re: Game Day: Suns (19-53) @ Cavs (42-29), Fri 3/23/18
I asked for an example of us tanking. You did not provide a reasonable one. I see no evidence of tanking from this team this year. Our talent level is reflected by our record, nothing more. Now you're being dramatic.Aztec Sunsfan wrote:I was giving a couple examples, read again, I was not saying we have lost any game we were due to win, but that occasionally we are deliberately careless to dismiss any possibility but hey, let's give Dudley an extension because he had a nice game!!!specialsauce wrote:That’s a huge stretch. You think of all people Jay Triano is intentionally losing by the timing of his rotation and substitutions ? Lol. Sorry, I have to say that I don’t see it. You really think that the amount of minutes he is giving to Harrison vs Ulis, or to Dudley is what is causing us to lose games we would otherwise win? Come on. You realize that last game Dudley was by far the best +\- on the court?
Sorry that you can’t see beyond your myopic prejudices, Lol.
Last year, we clearly tanked at an organizational level.
- The Bobster
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Re: Game Day: Suns (19-53) @ Cavs (42-29), Fri 3/23/18
They're losing a lot of games because they're a really, really bad team.
They don't need to tank.
They don't need to tank.
Author of The Basketball Draft Fact Book: A History of Professional Basketball's College Drafts
Available from Scarecrow Press at - https://rowman.com/ISBN/9780810890695
Available from Scarecrow Press at - https://rowman.com/ISBN/9780810890695
Re: Game Day: Suns (19-53) @ Cavs (42-29), Fri 3/23/18
The term "tanking" can mean different things. Some of you seem to be arguing that "tanking" means "throwing games," where either the players or the coach actively work during a game to try to lose. That is dumb and does not happen. But tanking does include activities such as the following:
- not using all of your salary cap space to sign veteran players who could improve your team
- giving huge minutes to rookies who are not ready and will cause your team to lose more games
- not doing everything you can to find/hire the best possible coach
- trading away veterans for minimal return
- letting players walk rather than re-signing them so that they don't help you win any more games
- drafting "project" players who will not be ready to contribute for several years
- resting players who are on the borderline of being healthy or injured
- signing D-Leaguers rather than veterans minimum guys to fill out roster spots
- not carrying a full roster of players
- being under the salary cap floor
And so on. The Suns have done most or all of these things. We are absolutely tanking. If we wanted to have better than the 2nd-worst record in the NBA, there are lots of things we could do to achieve that. We have chosen not to do any of those things, because we want to lose and want odds of getting a great draft pick. That is tanking, plain and simple, even if the deeply flawed and half-assed collection of players try their hardest to win once the jump ball is thrown up.
- not using all of your salary cap space to sign veteran players who could improve your team
- giving huge minutes to rookies who are not ready and will cause your team to lose more games
- not doing everything you can to find/hire the best possible coach
- trading away veterans for minimal return
- letting players walk rather than re-signing them so that they don't help you win any more games
- drafting "project" players who will not be ready to contribute for several years
- resting players who are on the borderline of being healthy or injured
- signing D-Leaguers rather than veterans minimum guys to fill out roster spots
- not carrying a full roster of players
- being under the salary cap floor
And so on. The Suns have done most or all of these things. We are absolutely tanking. If we wanted to have better than the 2nd-worst record in the NBA, there are lots of things we could do to achieve that. We have chosen not to do any of those things, because we want to lose and want odds of getting a great draft pick. That is tanking, plain and simple, even if the deeply flawed and half-assed collection of players try their hardest to win once the jump ball is thrown up.
Re: Game Day: Suns (19-53) @ Cavs (42-29), Fri 3/23/18
We are absolutely tanking.
In Triano's first 39 games, we were 16-29 (41%ish) with an average margin of defeat at -4.5 points. We lost 14 games by 10 or more, with 4 of those being 20 point blowouts. We were an up and down young team learning to compete in the NBA.
In the last 33, we are 3-29 (9%ish) with an average margin of defeat at -14.4 points. 20 games by 10 or more and 11 blowouts. We are one of the worst teams in history.
In Triano's first 39 games, we were 16-29 (41%ish) with an average margin of defeat at -4.5 points. We lost 14 games by 10 or more, with 4 of those being 20 point blowouts. We were an up and down young team learning to compete in the NBA.
In the last 33, we are 3-29 (9%ish) with an average margin of defeat at -14.4 points. 20 games by 10 or more and 11 blowouts. We are one of the worst teams in history.
The league needs heroes, villains... and clowns. -- Aztec Sunsfan
Re: Game Day: Suns (19-53) @ Cavs (42-29), Fri 3/23/18
Have you forgotten Mark Cuban’s $600,000 fine? What was that for?TheOriginalOriginal wrote:Again, nobody in the NBA is losing on purpose.
- The Bobster
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Re: Game Day: Suns (19-53) @ Cavs (42-29), Fri 3/23/18
Cap wrote:Have you forgotten Mark Cuban’s $600,000 fine? What was that for?TheOriginalOriginal wrote:Again, nobody in the NBA is losing on purpose.
The more correct statement is that the coaches and players don't want to tank, their livelihoods in the league depend on performing well. However, some front offices and owners are quite content with more losses and more ping pong balls to speed up their rebuilding.
Author of The Basketball Draft Fact Book: A History of Professional Basketball's College Drafts
Available from Scarecrow Press at - https://rowman.com/ISBN/9780810890695
Available from Scarecrow Press at - https://rowman.com/ISBN/9780810890695
Re: Game Day: Suns (19-53) @ Cavs (42-29), Fri 3/23/18
Words.Cap wrote:Have you forgotten Mark Cuban’s $600,000 fine? What was that for?TheOriginalOriginal wrote:Again, nobody in the NBA is losing on purpose.
Jones and Vogel gotta go.
- specialsauce
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Re: Game Day: Suns (19-53) @ Cavs (42-29), Fri 3/23/18
Your definition of tanking seems to be “losing.”O_Gardino wrote:We are absolutely tanking.
In Triano's first 39 games, we were 16-29 (41%ish) with an average margin of defeat at -4.5 points. We lost 14 games by 10 or more, with 4 of those being 20 point blowouts. We were an up and down young team learning to compete in the NBA.
In the last 33, we are 3-29 (9%ish) with an average margin of defeat at -14.4 points. 20 games by 10 or more and 11 blowouts. We are one of the worst teams in history.
Tanking to me implies that the team is purposely trying to throw games. Like we did holding out our vets last year.
- The Bobster
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Re: Game Day: Suns (19-53) @ Cavs (42-29), Fri 3/23/18
For players and coaches, I would agree. For organizations it means intentionally putting your coaches and players in a situation where they don;t have a reasonable expectation to win games so that your team will get a better draft choice.specialsauce wrote:Your definition of tanking seems to be “losing.”O_Gardino wrote:We are absolutely tanking.
In Triano's first 39 games, we were 16-29 (41%ish) with an average margin of defeat at -4.5 points. We lost 14 games by 10 or more, with 4 of those being 20 point blowouts. We were an up and down young team learning to compete in the NBA.
In the last 33, we are 3-29 (9%ish) with an average margin of defeat at -14.4 points. 20 games by 10 or more and 11 blowouts. We are one of the worst teams in history.
Tanking to me implies that the team is purposely trying to throw games. Like we did holding out our vets last year.
Author of The Basketball Draft Fact Book: A History of Professional Basketball's College Drafts
Available from Scarecrow Press at - https://rowman.com/ISBN/9780810890695
Available from Scarecrow Press at - https://rowman.com/ISBN/9780810890695
- specialsauce
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Re: Game Day: Suns (19-53) @ Cavs (42-29), Fri 3/23/18
I would agree with this sentiment with the emphasis on the bold. I think the Suns went into the season with longer term goals of trying to develop their players and grow their core. They acquired Payton at the deadline which was consistent with that goal. I don’t think the motivation for not signing win now veterans was to lose intentionally to get a better draft choice. I think they didn’t want to waste their cap space on average vets that wouldn’t move the needle much long term.The Bobster wrote:For players and coaches, I would agree. For organizations it means intentionally putting your coaches and players in a situation where they don;t have a reasonable expectation to win games so that your team will get a better draft choice.specialsauce wrote:Your definition of tanking seems to be “losing.”O_Gardino wrote:We are absolutely tanking.
In Triano's first 39 games, we were 16-29 (41%ish) with an average margin of defeat at -4.5 points. We lost 14 games by 10 or more, with 4 of those being 20 point blowouts. We were an up and down young team learning to compete in the NBA.
In the last 33, we are 3-29 (9%ish) with an average margin of defeat at -14.4 points. 20 games by 10 or more and 11 blowouts. We are one of the worst teams in history.
Tanking to me implies that the team is purposely trying to throw games. Like we did holding out our vets last year.
McD even admitted last year they held out their vets for “strategic resting.”
- Aztec Sunsfan
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Re: Game Day: Suns (19-53) @ Cavs (42-29), Fri 3/23/18
Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:The term "tanking" can mean different things. Some of you seem to be arguing that "tanking" means "throwing games," where either the players or the coach actively work during a game to try to lose. That is dumb and does not happen. But tanking does include activities such as the following:
- not using all of your salary cap space to sign veteran players who could improve your team
- giving huge minutes to rookies who are not ready and will cause your team to lose more games
- not doing everything you can to find/hire the best possible coach
- trading away veterans for minimal return
- letting players walk rather than re-signing them so that they don't help you win any more games
- drafting "project" players who will not be ready to contribute for several years
- resting players who are on the borderline of being healthy or injured
- signing D-Leaguers rather than veterans minimum guys to fill out roster spots
- not carrying a full roster of players
- being under the salary cap floor
And so on. The Suns have done most or all of these things. We are absolutely tanking. If we wanted to have better than the 2nd-worst record in the NBA, there are lots of things we could do to achieve that. We have chosen not to do any of those things, because we want to lose and want odds of getting a great draft pick. That is tanking, plain and simple, even if the deeply flawed and half-assed collection of players try their hardest to win once the jump ball is thrown up.
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