Game Day: Warriors (57-23) @ Suns (20-60), Sun 4/8/18

[Mori Chu]

I am happy with the way this season played out. I admit I was hoping we would be a little better and finish in the middle of the pack when the season started. As long as we were going to lose I am glad we finished last and have the best chance at the #1 pick. The guys who really need the playing time the most are have gotten the most playing time the last half the season.

Booker is a furure All Star. Warren is a stud. Jackson was a letdown the start but has really turned heads since the All Star break and looks like he will a at minimum a stud.

Ulis has gotten another chance and has played ok, not great. Chriss has played ok, not great. Bender has improved his shooting and has gotten more aggressive lately.

Harrison has played pretty well. It’s nice to see some defense. I hope to see him back next year.

Len gets a lot of flack. I think he has improved a lot this year and I consider him a solid Center and would be fine with him as our Center. Yes it is a contract year and guys play harder when they are playing for a new contract but, IMO he is solid. We keep going through centers almost as much as PG’s. Am not a draft expert but, from the sound of things it seems there are a lot of talented Big men and if we get the #1-2 pick and can land a future All Star Center then I won’t complain. Just getting rid of Len because he doesn’t meet our standards of what we want from a center is a mistake IMO.

The glaring achilles heal for this team is the PG position IMO and until we get solid there we will suck to some degree. We have a lot of cap space and management has talked about making some moves in the off season with that cash. If they can snag a real PG and get the #1 as a big man then I would hope we are done with tanking and can cncentrate on winning.

The think Triano has done a decent job. I can see another year with him as coach. After that the core team should be established and start to gel. No Suns coach in recent times lasts more than 2-3 years so, after next year I predict that will be when we go for the next coach, who hopefully will be a wise choice and maybe a big name to set us up for the playoof run that lasts for years to come.

I agree with most of this. I like Len's improvement a lot and am sad that he's likely to be tossed aside. If we draft a center, sure, let Len go. But if we draft Doncic? Why not sign Len to a reasonable-ish deal? Who better are we going to get at center?

[ShelC]

I just wish Len played like he was 7-1.

[O_Gardino]

I'm one of Bender's biggest supporters here, but I don't think he'll ever average 8 rebounds. I think if you judge him by his tough interior play and work on the offensive glass, you've missed the point.

It’s pathetic when a 7 foot 1 player can’t average 8 rebounds per game.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/play ... vgRebounds

There are surprisingly few players averaging more than 8 a game. I do agree that he needs to be much better on the boards though.

Especially if they can shoot the 3 or if they can guard the perimeter. Can Bender be a bigger Joe Ingles?

There you go!

Bender is already a better rebounder than most historic stretch 4's like Clifford Robinson and Robert Horry.

He is a similar rebounder to Channing Frye and Detlef Schrempf.

If he wants to be a true force and part of a winning team's core, like Lamar Odom or Kevin Love, he absolutely needs to rebound better and better at attacking the defense.

[O_Gardino]

I don't think we keep Len. He's unrestricted, declined to negotiate a contract last summer, and took a one year deal specifically so he could have more control of his employment. I think if he gets any offer from another team that promises him playing time, he leaves us no matter what contract we offer.

[Cap]

I'm one of Bender's biggest supporters here, but I don't think he'll ever average 8 rebounds. I think if you judge him by his tough interior play and work on the offensive glass, you've missed the point.

It’s pathetic when a 7 foot 1 player can’t average 8 rebounds per game.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/play ... vgRebounds

There are surprisingly few players averaging more than 8 a game. I do agree that he needs to be much better on the boards though.

Here it is filtered by 7’1” or taller: http://bkref.com/tiny/FQqU3

15 such players in the league. Three of them, including Tyson Chandler, average at least eight a game. Bender ranks sixth at 4.3.

In rebounds per minute, Len is second, Chandler is third, and Bender is last out of 15.

[O_Gardino]

I'm one of Bender's biggest supporters here, but I don't think he'll ever average 8 rebounds. I think if you judge him by his tough interior play and work on the offensive glass, you've missed the point.

It’s pathetic when a 7 foot 1 player can’t average 8 rebounds per game.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/play ... vgRebounds

There are surprisingly few players averaging more than 8 a game. I do agree that he needs to be much better on the boards though.

Here it is filtered by 7’1” or taller: http://bkref.com/tiny/FQqU3

15 such players in the league. Three of them, including Tyson Chandler, average at least eight a game. Bender ranks sixth at 4.3.

In rebounds per minute, Len is second, Chandler is third, and Bender is last out of 15.

So Bender is a slightly worse rebounder than KP. KP has a DRB% of 18.1, and Bender has a DRB% of 16.6.

The rest of those guys are centers, and for 4 of them literally their only skill is rebounding.

Again, if you look at the league and say, "Bender is 7'1", he should play inside and get all the rebounds. Russell Westbrook is short, he shouldn't get so many rebounds, he should give those rebounds to his tall teammates," then I think you've missed the last 15 years of the NBA.

[Split T]

Let's not try and make excuses for Bender. He's a bad rebounder and needs to improve. Chriss was the one that was supposed to be a terrible rebounder and he's actually turned into an ok one.

[O_Gardino]

Let's not try and make excuses for Bender. He's a bad rebounder and needs to improve. Chriss was the one that was supposed to be a terrible rebounder and he's actually turned into an ok one.

[Cap]

I'm one of Bender's biggest supporters here, but I don't think he'll ever average 8 rebounds. I think if you judge him by his tough interior play and work on the offensive glass, you've missed the point.

It’s pathetic when a 7 foot 1 player can’t average 8 rebounds per game.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/play ... vgRebounds

There are surprisingly few players averaging more than 8 a game. I do agree that he needs to be much better on the boards though.

Here it is filtered by 7’1” or taller: http://bkref.com/tiny/FQqU3

15 such players in the league. Three of them, including Tyson Chandler, average at least eight a game. Bender ranks sixth at 4.3.

In rebounds per minute, Len is second, Chandler is third, and Bender is last out of 15.

So Bender is a slightly worse rebounder than KP. KP has a DRB% of 18.1, and Bender has a DRB% of 16.6.

The rest of those guys are centers, and for 4 of them literally their only skill is rebounding.

Again, if you look at the league and say, "Bender is 7'1", he should play inside and get all the rebounds. Russell Westbrook is short, he shouldn't get so many rebounds, he should give those rebounds to his tall teammates," then I think you've missed the last 15 years of the NBA.

OK, let's exclude the centers. Forwards, 6’10” or taller, ranked by DRB%: http://bkref.com/tiny/zWgrJ

30 players qualify. Chriss ranks #9. Bender ranks #22.

[Split T]

Let's not try and make excuses for Bender. He's a bad rebounder and needs to improve. Chriss was the one that was supposed to be a terrible rebounder and he's actually turned into an ok one.

Do you disagree or you don't care that he sucks at rebounding?

[Mori Chu]

Bender doesn't get many rebounds. But he's often camped out behind the 3-point line, so he wouldn't get many offensive boards that way. And increasingly the PF position roams around the perimeter, so the days of PFs hauling down 10+ boards are waning. Not making excuses for him; he does seem to lack a certain nose for rebounding that some other players his size have. But I don't think it is at all as simple as, "This guy is 7'1, he should get this many rebounds." I also don't think his rebounding numbers are what I primarily want from him. I want outside shooting and tight defense, and he has been slowly improving in both of those areas over the past few years.

[Split T]

Bender vs Chriss debate. Most of us here prefer bender and think he's the better player/prospect. I'm curious to discuss why. Do we just like bender better as a player/person so we ignore the stats? There is no statistical argument to be made for bender to be a better player than Chriss. Statistically, he's awful.

Per 36:

9.1 points, 6.2 boards, 2.3 assists, .4 steals, .9 blocks and shoots .381/.362/.771
13.1 points, 9.3 boards, 2.0 assists, 1.2 steals, 1.7 blocks and shoots .423/.295/.608


Bender is a smart player but at some point he needs to start actually doing something other than be a spot up shooter. That's the only thing he does better than Chriss right now.

Advanced stats

Bender has a 95 ORTG, a 114 DRTG, -.1 win shares, a PER of 6.8 and a TS% of .517
Chriss has a 95 ORTG, a 109 DRTG, .7 win shares, a PER of 11.1 and a TS% of .509

Both are pretty awful, but I don't think there is much of an argument that bender is better right now. Chriss isn't as smart and disciplined as bender, but he actually does things on the court. We talk about him as a terrible defender, but he at least produces stats on defense. When his head is in the game, his athleticism shines through. I think he's figured out he needs to stay in shape and if he does that and works on his shot, I think he can actually be a positive player next year. I think if forced to choose, I take Chriss over bender right now.

Bender really needs to get stronger and become a stretch 5. Rebound, stretch the floor, protect the rim, pass from high post. That's all I want from him.

[Nodack]

So you think the Suns may have to prove themselves first as an up and coming team before they become a destination spot for a long term coach and/or free agents?

Not so much that in my mind but, keeping with the 2-3 year max Suns coaching tenure, I figure another year with Triano being a baby sitter for our young team before he wears out his welcome like everybody else. By then we should have our roster sort of set for the future and it will be time for “the guy” to come into the picture and take us to the next level with a maturing cast.

[Cap]

Bender doesn't get many rebounds. But he's often camped out behind the 3-point line, so he wouldn't get many offensive boards that way. And increasingly the PF position roams around the perimeter, so the days of PFs hauling down 10+ boards are waning. Not making excuses for him; he does seem to lack a certain nose for rebounding that some other players his size have. But I don't think it is at all as simple as, "This guy is 7'1, he should get this many rebounds." I also don't think his rebounding numbers are what I primarily want from him. I want outside shooting and tight defense, and he has been slowly improving in both of those areas over the past few years.

Why are we such a poor rebounding team? Len, Chandler, and even Chriss get their share when they play, but it’s not enough.

Do you think giving 2000+ minutes to a PF who’s a non-contributor in that department may be part of the problem? Or would you rather point the finger at Ulis, Booker and Daniels?

[O_Gardino]

Let's not try and make excuses for Bender. He's a bad rebounder and needs to improve. Chriss was the one that was supposed to be a terrible rebounder and he's actually turned into an ok one.

Do you disagree or you don't care that he sucks at rebounding?

As I said in another post, I don't think he sucks at rebounding.

He's as good a rebounder as many very good role players who have lots of championship rings. If he wants to be more than just a role player, he needs to add more facets to his game.

But I'm certainly not going to spend this summer picking apart his rebounding numbers the way we picked apart his shooting percentages last season.

[O_Gardino]

Bender vs Chriss debate. Most of us here prefer bender and think he's the better player/prospect. I'm curious to discuss why. Do we just like bender better as a player/person so we ignore the stats? There is no statistical argument to be made for bender to be a better player than Chriss. Statistically, he's awful.

Per 36:

9.1 points, 6.2 boards, 2.3 assists, .4 steals, .9 blocks and shoots .381/.362/.771
13.1 points, 9.3 boards, 2.0 assists, 1.2 steals, 1.7 blocks and shoots .423/.295/.608


Bender is a smart player but at some point he needs to start actually doing something other than be a spot up shooter. That's the only thing he does better than Chriss right now.

Advanced stats

Bender has a 95 ORTG, a 114 DRTG, -.1 win shares, a PER of 6.8 and a TS% of .517
Chriss has a 95 ORTG, a 109 DRTG, .7 win shares, a PER of 11.1 and a TS% of .509

Both are pretty awful, but I don't think there is much of an argument that bender is better right now. Chriss isn't as smart and disciplined as bender, but he actually does things on the court. We talk about him as a terrible defender, but he at least produces stats on defense. When his head is in the game, his athleticism shines through. I think he's figured out he needs to stay in shape and if he does that and works on his shot, I think he can actually be a positive player next year. I think if forced to choose, I take Chriss over bender right now.

Bender really needs to get stronger and become a stretch 5. Rebound, stretch the floor, protect the rim, pass from high post. That's all I want from him.

That's not the player he is, and that's not what he's going to give. He has a different set of strengths.

[TOO]

If Bender ever becomes a 5, he'll be a Brook Lopez type that shoots 3's and gets 5reb a game. I'd rather he be a SF at that rate

[Split T]

Bender vs Chriss debate. Most of us here prefer bender and think he's the better player/prospect. I'm curious to discuss why. Do we just like bender better as a player/person so we ignore the stats? There is no statistical argument to be made for bender to be a better player than Chriss. Statistically, he's awful.

Per 36:

9.1 points, 6.2 boards, 2.3 assists, .4 steals, .9 blocks and shoots .381/.362/.771
13.1 points, 9.3 boards, 2.0 assists, 1.2 steals, 1.7 blocks and shoots .423/.295/.608


Bender is a smart player but at some point he needs to start actually doing something other than be a spot up shooter. That's the only thing he does better than Chriss right now.

Advanced stats

Bender has a 95 ORTG, a 114 DRTG, -.1 win shares, a PER of 6.8 and a TS% of .517
Chriss has a 95 ORTG, a 109 DRTG, .7 win shares, a PER of 11.1 and a TS% of .509

Both are pretty awful, but I don't think there is much of an argument that bender is better right now. Chriss isn't as smart and disciplined as bender, but he actually does things on the court. We talk about him as a terrible defender, but he at least produces stats on defense. When his head is in the game, his athleticism shines through. I think he's figured out he needs to stay in shape and if he does that and works on his shot, I think he can actually be a positive player next year. I think if forced to choose, I take Chriss over bender right now.

Bender really needs to get stronger and become a stretch 5. Rebound, stretch the floor, protect the rim, pass from high post. That's all I want from him.

That's not the player he is, and that's not what he's going to give. He has a different set of strengths.

What exactly are his strengths then? Is he strictly a shooter? I'm really not that interested in keeping him around if that's all he's gonna be.

[Split T]

If Bender ever becomes a 5, he'll be a Brook Lopez type that shoots 3's and gets 5reb a game. I'd rather he be a SF at that rate

I'd be pretty happy if he ended up as good as Brook Lopez. Right now I don't expect much out of him. I'm not giving up on him, but he needs to show us something next year.

[Shabazz]

Bender vs Chriss debate. Most of us here prefer bender and think he's the better player/prospect. I'm curious to discuss why. Do we just like bender better as a player/person so we ignore the stats? There is no statistical argument to be made for bender to be a better player than Chriss. Statistically, he's awful.

Per 36:

9.1 points, 6.2 boards, 2.3 assists, .4 steals, .9 blocks and shoots .381/.362/.771
13.1 points, 9.3 boards, 2.0 assists, 1.2 steals, 1.7 blocks and shoots .423/.295/.608


Bender is a smart player but at some point he needs to start actually doing something other than be a spot up shooter. That's the only thing he does better than Chriss right now.

Advanced stats

Bender has a 95 ORTG, a 114 DRTG, -.1 win shares, a PER of 6.8 and a TS% of .517
Chriss has a 95 ORTG, a 109 DRTG, .7 win shares, a PER of 11.1 and a TS% of .509

Both are pretty awful, but I don't think there is much of an argument that bender is better right now. Chriss isn't as smart and disciplined as bender, but he actually does things on the court. We talk about him as a terrible defender, but he at least produces stats on defense. When his head is in the game, his athleticism shines through. I think he's figured out he needs to stay in shape and if he does that and works on his shot, I think he can actually be a positive player next year. I think if forced to choose, I take Chriss over bender right now.

Bender really needs to get stronger and become a stretch 5. Rebound, stretch the floor, protect the rim, pass from high post. That's all I want from him.

This is an argument where the stats and the eyeball test don't meet. Bender has feel, IQ and court sense that Chriss likely never will. Chriss has hops that Bender for sure never will. But I think it's less likely that Chriss develops the elements of his game that he's currently missing than Dragan becoming more assertive, finishing inside and taking the next step on defense.

I also think the kind of player Dragan can become is a lot more rare than what Chriss can give us in a best case scenario. Every draft has a few Marquese Chrisses. Dragan's upside is a player that can switch on the perimeter and credibly defend inside, while initiating offense from the top of the key and hitting 40% from 3. An elite role-player that can fit on any roster. Those are tough to come by.

Now obviously he has a long way to go to get there. It's up to him and the Suns development staff.