JustWinBaby wrote:
So many games are won today at the three point line it is hard not to go with Doncic. Some say he is not a great three point shooter. Josh Jackson has not been a great three point shooter. Well Devin Booker is a great three point shooter and will get better with the addition of Doncic and the the improvement that will come from Jackson. Our new coach has a history of improving three point shooters and I think these three guys are competitive enough to push each other to get better. I expect them all to be extremely dangerou going forward. On top of that they are all great ball handlers and willing distributors. I get excited just thinking about them together. I would find my big elsewhere other than Ayton.
Maybe I am wrong but I am also expecting huge improvement from Bender and Chriss as well. I just looked them up and they both are still just 20 years old. This group could really grow into something very special, with the right leadership. The right leader is Doncic.
Exactly !
I know we were spoiled but I miss the days when we had a real floor general. Ulis is the only one who shared the ball and it was kind of contagious for a few games. But then lack of playing time (and the subsequent desire to impress) grew him in a poor man's IT.
We need to share the ball and stop hero ball, 3pt shooting and discipline to play good team defense (I saw glimpse in each of our young players, with the right coach I think Bender and Chriss can really surprise us)
Seems like he's a Harden type, where he's a 2/3 but plays PG. My concern would be guarding opposing PGs.
And agreed about Ayton and his defense. I'm less inclined to take a big like him who isn't a monster defensively. Then again, being a legit big in college is tough at times because of spacing. Still, I'm leaning towards Doncic.
Firstly, there's the original maxim...which is still true. You can't teach size. This is followed by the Vladimir Corollary, you can't teach athleticism WITH size EVER.
This is what workouts, interviews, and medical exams are about. You do all the above and make the best decision with data in hand you can.
From a pure starting point, however, two facts can't be denied...
a. You still need a class A big.
b. We don't have 'a,' and Ayton has the start of being one.
c. We still need a Class A PG...or at least we want one.
D. Thus, regardless of draft, the management needs a plan to get BOTH, and they need to do their homework on the realities of both players and choose AND have a plan to get whichever they don't pick, other than put us through more seasons like this one.
Here's what will be sure to be an unpopular thought. I love Booker...BUT...
- Take Ayton at 1
- Offer Booker + 2 Future 1's for the #2
- Take Doncic at 2
....or...the natural question is whether there's another path to a good PG out there...or a mid 1st rounder we could snag.
We need BOTH, but I don't see how we get there without some luck and/or good planning...and I don't know what confidence I can have in current management to accomplish that. We don't have the best track record there.
Carey...so many are losing their minds over Doncic...and you need 1 AND 2 to get both. Personally, I keep Booker...take Ayton and Aaron Holiday and call it good. You can"t bloody start 2 SGs...and our PG situation is meh. Shrug.
You cannot go wrong with Ayton or Doncic. I tend to favor Doncic, though. He's a very good distributor, who can nail the three. Those skills translate to the modern NBA game better than Aytons.
We also have Alan Williams at the 5 on a very cheap deal, and our PG situation is horrific. We need playmaking, defense, and 3 point shooting more than anything. Ayton provides none of these. Doncic hits two out of the three.
A team goes as its PG goes. If Doncic can play a Harden-type role as distributor off the PnR, that'll make everyone else better. So even if you take Ayton and don't get that gamechanging guard/distributor we'll be back to square one: A bunch of pretty good players with no one to tie things together.
rhylek wrote:Matrix often defended opposite PG in the Nash days. Could Jackson do the same if Doncic can't?
He did? Matrix was much more known for defending guys bigger than him. We had Raja for whichever guard was better.
Maybe my perception is wrong since I wasn't able to watch a lot of games at the time.
I remember him defending Parker in the playoffs, Nash defending Bowen.
I remember Raja's clotheslining Kobe
No, Ayton + Holiday put you in contention. Doncic gives a a SECOND shooting guard and STILL no starting big that's a franchise player...more tanking to come.
You don't draft a damn starting SG when you HAVE a damn good one to start, especially when you have fundamental holes. Ayton...or trade down and try to roll maybe a combo of Trae and Bsma...but Booker OR Doncic would be your SG...you don't need both.
Vladimir_Taltos wrote:No, Ayton + Holiday put you in contention. Doncic gives a a SECOND shooting guard and STILL no starting big that's a franchise player...more tanking to come.
You don't draft a damn starting SG when you HAVE a damn good one to start, especially when you have fundamental holes. Ayton...or trade down and try to roll maybe a combo of Trae and Bsma...but Booker OR Doncic would be your SG...you don't need both.
You keep calling Doncic a SG. He's much more of a PG in a SFs body than anything. Think of a slightly shorter Ben Simmons. You also have to acknowledge that McDonough has said they are unlikely to pick at #16.
Vladimir_Taltos wrote:No, Ayton + Holiday put you in contention. Doncic gives a a SECOND shooting guard and STILL no starting big that's a franchise player...more tanking to come.
You don't draft a damn starting SG when you HAVE a damn good one to start, especially when you have fundamental holes. Ayton...or trade down and try to roll maybe a combo of Trae and Bsma...but Booker OR Doncic would be your SG...you don't need both.
ShelC wrote:A team goes as its PG goes. If Doncic can play a Harden-type role as distributor off the PnR, that'll make everyone else better. So even if you take Ayton and don't get that gamechanging guard/distributor we'll be back to square one: A bunch of pretty good players with no one to tie things together.
This is the heart of it to me. With nobody to run our offense, we're just a nice collection of misfit pieces. A rare floor general like Doncic would completely transform our team. Ayton is another nice individual piece.
I just don't know why folks think Ayton addresses the Suns' needs. We need passing/assists, shooting (particularly 3-point shooting), rebounding, and defense. Ayton is a very nice post scorer with elite athleticism and strength. He is a decent distance shooter for his position, but he prefers to play in the paint and work inside-out. He would help with the rebounding, yes. But otherwise how exactly does he help address our needs? Why do people think "a big man" is what the Suns need? What exactly does he give us that makes us closer to being a contender?
I think I'd honestly be happy with either pick. They both excite me.
One thing I'll say about Ayton--I don't think his floor is lower than Doncic. The likelihood of him being a bust, barring unforeseen injuries, is extremely small. He's highly skilled and physically dominant. I think he'll make an impact from day one. Regarding his defense, though, Coach Igor has his work cut out for him.
Vladimir_Taltos wrote:No, Ayton + Holiday put you in contention. Doncic gives a a SECOND shooting guard and STILL no starting big that's a franchise player...more tanking to come.
You don't draft a damn starting SG when you HAVE a damn good one to start, especially when you have fundamental holes. Ayton...or trade down and try to roll maybe a combo of Trae and Bsma...but Booker OR Doncic would be your SG...you don't need both.
Doncic will be a point guard.
Agreed. Doncic is a primary ball handler with great court vision and a very solid 3 point stroke. He's got SF size, a PG mentality. He doesn't have the slither / wiggle / body control Nash did, but few do.
Ayton's defense is a concern, but you have to remember that we aren't drafting finished projects. Most of Ayton's defensive concerns are lack of understanding. He moves his feet really well on the perimeter and the size/wingspan/athleticism to be an elite rim protector. I think there is a good chance he becomes a good defender.
Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:I think if Ayton were even average on defense, I would want him. But he's a bad defender. In today's NBA I just don't think the premium on big men exists any more. Doncic is a better passer, shooter, ball-handler, and defender than Ayton. There's no reason to draft a big man who isn't an elite defender and rim protector in 2018-19.
People keep comparing Ayton to David Robinson, but that's bunk. Robinson was an awesome defender. Ayton isn't even close. I think people are just comparing them because they both have big muscles or something.
I totally agree with this take 70% of the time. I think Ayton will be in foul trouble a lot in the NBA, and I don't think his great post-up game and offensive rebounding will be enough to make up for that.
The other 30% of the time, I think that Ayton had bad coaching and is willing to work and move on defense. Maybe with a good coach, he becomes a good defender.
The league needs heroes, villains... and clowns. -- Aztec Sunsfan
