Phx-Suns.Net

Split T wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:45 pm

All Bender has contributed as a pro is slightly above average spot up 3 point shooting.

Bender is a significantly better defender and he appears to actually understand how to play team basketball.

Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:47 pm

Split T wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:45 pm

All Bender has contributed as a pro is slightly above average spot up 3 point shooting.

Bender is a significantly better defender and he appears to actually understand how to play team basketball.

Can you prove this in anyway? I actually thought Chriss did more defensively last year than Bender. Chriss is a better shot blocker, he gets his hands on balls with more frequency, is a better rebounder, and holds his position better in the post. Does Chriss get caught in no man's land more often? Sure, but I'm not sure that outweighs everything else. Advanced stats aren't perfect and the defensive ones probably aren't as accurate as offensive, but Chriss still rates as better in all of them.

For all the talk of Bender's ability to switch and cover guards on the perimeter, all I remember is Chris Paul hitting like 4 shots in a row after Bender switched on him.

For reference:

Bender has a steal rate of 0.5, blk rate of 2.1, rebound rate of 9.3. He has a defensive rating of 114, a DWS of 0.8, and a DBPM of 0.0. His defensive real plus minus is negative .74

Chriss has a steal rate of 1.6, blk rate of 3.7, and a rebound rate of 13.8. He has a defensive rating of 109, a DWS of 1.5 and a DBPM of 1.3. His defensive real plus minus is positive .76

So Chriss has triple the steal rate, almost double the block rate, and 1.5 times the rebound rate, in addition to having better marks in every advanced metric. Bender is not significantly better defensively...there's a much better argument that Chriss is significantly better defensively.

I'm really hoping whatever happens and whoever stands out, that both improve by leaps and bounds this year and no one labels either one a bust anymore.

In2ition wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 15, 2018 5:04 pm

I'm really hoping whatever happens and whoever stands out, that both improve by leaps and bounds this year and no one labels either one a bust anymore.

That would be nice.

Split T wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 15, 2018 5:01 pm

For reference:

Bender has a steal rate of 0.5, blk rate of 2.1, rebound rate of 9.3. He has a defensive rating of 114, a DWS of 0.8, and a DBPM of 0.0. His defensive real plus minus is negative .74

Chriss has a steal rate of 1.6, blk rate of 3.7, and a rebound rate of 13.8. He has a defensive rating of 109, a DWS of 1.5 and a DBPM of 1.3. His defensive real plus minus is positive .76

So Chriss has triple the steal rate, almost double the block rate, and 1.5 times the rebound rate, in addition to having better marks in every advanced metric. Bender is not significantly better defensively...there's a much better argument that Chriss is significantly better defensively.

Defensive stats can be so misleading. I really don't care that much about Bender over Chriss or whatever, but Bender plays excellent body position D on the perimeter. That kind of defensive effectiveness does not often show up on defensive stats especially on a bad team. Bender plays more just plain solid textbook body position D. Chriss, when he has his head together to play, does more flashy things. I view them similar in defense with the nod maybe going to Bender.

JCSunsfan wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 15, 2018 5:39 pm

Split T wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 15, 2018 5:01 pm

For reference:

Bender has a steal rate of 0.5, blk rate of 2.1, rebound rate of 9.3. He has a defensive rating of 114, a DWS of 0.8, and a DBPM of 0.0. His defensive real plus minus is negative .74

Chriss has a steal rate of 1.6, blk rate of 3.7, and a rebound rate of 13.8. He has a defensive rating of 109, a DWS of 1.5 and a DBPM of 1.3. His defensive real plus minus is positive .76

So Chriss has triple the steal rate, almost double the block rate, and 1.5 times the rebound rate, in addition to having better marks in every advanced metric. Bender is not significantly better defensively...there's a much better argument that Chriss is significantly better defensively.

Defensive stats can be so misleading. I really don't care that much about Bender over Chriss or whatever, but Bender plays excellent body position D on the perimeter. That kind of defensive effectiveness does not often show up on defensive stats especially on a bad team. Bender plays more just plain solid textbook body position D. Chriss, when he has his head together to play, does more flashy things. I view them similar in defense with the nod maybe going to Bender.

Sure, they can be misleading... But misleading enough that Chriss could be significantly better in literally every statistic there is? I just don't buy it. Calling Bender a better defender tells me you've made up your mind previously and are just ignoring the evidence in front of you.

Without looking at stats and merely just going by what I've seen in games Bender is better at containing his man when his man has the ball. Bender was also called upon to guard smaller quicker guys at certain times. I remember thinking, "what was he doing?" about Chriss's defense alot more times than Bender. I don't feel like Chriss got as tough of defensive assignments as Bender either and the strategy has always been: hide your weaker defenders. I think my feeling has been on Chriss is that he'll block a shot for every 3 layups he gives up. Plus I feel he is extremely more foul prone.

With that being said, I think they are both trash and have not developed at the pace I had expected.

djy2j wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:49 am

Without looking at stats and merely just going by what I've seen in games Bender is better at containing his man when his man has the ball. Bender was also called upon to guard smaller quicker guys at certain times. I remember thinking, "what was he doing?" about Chriss's defense alot more times than Bender. I don't feel like Chriss got as tough of defensive assignments as Bender either and the strategy has always been: hide your weaker defenders. I think my feeling has been on Chriss is that he'll block a shot for every 3 layups he gives up. Plus I feel he is extremely more foul prone.

With that being said, I think they are both trash and have not developed at the pace I had expected.

That's fair and I'm sure has some truth to it, but I think the numbers show that it's not entirely true. Whatever Chriss is doing on defense is resulting in the Suns playing better defensively when he's in opposed to Bender. Fluke? I guess it's possible, but I'd imagine it's extremely unlikely that Chriss would have the better stats in every single defensive statistic, yet be the worse defender.

Ya Bender defended more smaller guys, but I don't remember him doing it very well...perhaps that's the problem. We're asking Bender to defend people he can't defend. Maybe he'd fair better defending slower perimeter guys or non banging big men.

Defense isn't typically individual based. Team defense really lends itself to individual statistics being better than others. If a perimeter defender continually allows who he's guarding to blow by him and someone has to help on defense, that player will likely have better individual block numbers. Your stats are typically a byproduct of the rest of the team doing their job. Is this something you account for Split, team defensive statistics with Bender on the floor vs. Chriss?

AIG, off topic but time for a new signature! Everybody involved is long gone, thank god. However, it might help to understand the current state of the franchise and the long playoff drought.

Superbone wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:25 am

AIG, off topic but time for a new signature! Everybody involved is long gone, thank god. However, it might help to understand the current state of the franchise and the long playoff drought.

DONE!

AmareIsGod wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:34 pm

Superbone wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:25 am

AIG, off topic but time for a new signature! Everybody involved is long gone, thank god. However, it might help to understand the current state of the franchise and the long playoff drought.

DONE!

Nice. I don't even think I've read that one before. The kid has a big personality. I'm really looking forward to the season to see what he can do.

AmareIsGod wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:19 am

Defense isn't typically individual based. Team defense really lends itself to individual statistics being better than others. If a perimeter defender continually allows who he's guarding to blow by him and someone has to help on defense, that player will likely have better individual block numbers. Your stats are typically a byproduct of the rest of the team doing their job. Is this something you account for Split, team defensive statistics with Bender on the floor vs. Chriss?

Not sure exactly what you are asking...but the Suns as a whole played better defense with Chriss on the court than with Bender. Granted, we were terrible with either on the court. I didn't do any extensive look into who they were playing with and how that might play a role, but that's what defensive rpm is supposed to account for and by that metric, Chriss was 1.5 points better than Bender.

I may be wrong, but I think that's supposed to mean we give up 1.5 points per 100 possessions less by playing Chriss instead of Bender.

AmareIsGod wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:34 pm

Superbone wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:25 am

AIG, off topic but time for a new signature! Everybody involved is long gone, thank god. However, it might help to understand the current state of the franchise and the long playoff drought.

DONE!

I liked the old one. Made me ruefully shake my head every time i read it.

Shabazz wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:21 pm

AmareIsGod wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:34 pm

Superbone wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:25 am

AIG, off topic but time for a new signature! Everybody involved is long gone, thank god. However, it might help to understand the current state of the franchise and the long playoff drought.

DONE!

I liked the old one. Made me ruefully shake my head every time i read it.

Eh. Rather than wallowing in the past, I'd rather look forward to a brighter future.

I think he earned a spot:

https://twitter.com/sbordow/status/1018988805762703360

I think I'd prefer Reed to Daniels if push came to shove. Reed plays both sides of the ball and showed in SL that he can really shoot the ball.

https://sports.vice.com/en_us/article/q ... ts-the-eye

Mikal Bridges piece.

JCSunsfan wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 15, 2018 5:39 pm

Split T wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 15, 2018 5:01 pm

For reference:

Bender has a steal rate of 0.5, blk rate of 2.1, rebound rate of 9.3. He has a defensive rating of 114, a DWS of 0.8, and a DBPM of 0.0. His defensive real plus minus is negative .74

Chriss has a steal rate of 1.6, blk rate of 3.7, and a rebound rate of 13.8. He has a defensive rating of 109, a DWS of 1.5 and a DBPM of 1.3. His defensive real plus minus is positive .76

So Chriss has triple the steal rate, almost double the block rate, and 1.5 times the rebound rate, in addition to having better marks in every advanced metric. Bender is not significantly better defensively...there's a much better argument that Chriss is significantly better defensively.

Defensive stats can be so misleading. I really don't care that much about Bender over Chriss or whatever, but Bender plays excellent body position D on the perimeter. That kind of defensive effectiveness does not often show up on defensive stats especially on a bad team. Bender plays more just plain solid textbook body position D. Chriss, when he has his head together to play, does more flashy things. I view them similar in defense with the nod maybe going to Bender.

I think you’re right. There isn’t much to take away from these players’ stats either way. Both are wildly inconsistent and learning. Chriss seems to have a subpar attitude and work ethic which underly his inconsistent play; it doesn’t bode well for projecting his future. Bender thankfully is very young and his being a gym rat may up his skill and hopefully enhance his competence on the court to do something else besides catch and shoot. There hasn’t been enough on the court leadership and good team play for them to apply their wares. Duds and Chandler are more locker room guys than anything else. It’s a valid criticism that the suns have been terrible at developing youth. Hopefully the coaching staff is able to make for a stronger program to integrate and salvage the youth. It may be too late for the older youth because you kind of need a decent system to begin with and we’re a couple years out.