Around the League: 2018 Offseason

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specialsauce
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Re: Around the League: 2018 Offseason

Post by specialsauce »

LOL. Warren for those two? Please. No way in hell

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Split T
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Re: Around the League: 2018 Offseason

Post by Split T »

I don't want Beverley and teodosic. That gives Harrison/Okobo/Melton zero chance for minutes. Warren for Beverley is an overpay.

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In2ition
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Re: Around the League: 2018 Offseason

Post by In2ition »

specialsauce wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:13 pm
LOL. Warren for those two? Please. No way in hell
Nothing against Warren, as I really like TJ and think he's highly underrated, but this would be a good deal imo.

1. Gives the Suns 2 starting type pgs. One who is a savant of a passer and could get Ayton involved while also being 6'5" and the other as a culture setter with a bulldog mentality on defense and a good 3 pt shooter.
2. Eliminates a player that doesn't really play the way we are trying to move.
3. Gets off of Warren's long term money if he doesn't fit in, and potentially give the Suns almost $40 M in cap space next off-season.
4. Eliminates a log jam at SF and opens up minutes for Bridges.
5. Helps the Suns win more this year.
"When we all think alike, nobody is thinking" - Walter Lippmann
"Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them." ~ Frederick Douglass

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specialsauce
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Re: Around the League: 2018 Offseason

Post by specialsauce »

Second round pick + Daniels or Chandler or Harrison is the most I’d give up.

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specialsauce
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Re: Around the League: 2018 Offseason

Post by specialsauce »

In2ition wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:18 pm
specialsauce wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:13 pm
LOL. Warren for those two? Please. No way in hell
Nothing against Warren, as I really like TJ and think he's highly underrated, but this would be a good deal imo.

1. Gives the Suns 2 starting type pgs. One who is a savant of a passer and could get Ayton involved while also being 6'5" and the other as a culture setter with a bulldog mentality on defense and a good 3 pt shooter.
2. Eliminates a player that doesn't really play the way we are trying to move.
3. Gets off of Warren's long term money if he doesn't fit in, and potentially give the Suns almost $40 M in cap space next off-season.
4. Eliminates a log jam at SF and opens up minutes for Bridges.
5. Helps the Suns win more this year.
You are vastly underrating TJ are you kidding me? He’s a near 20 ppg scorer for 2 PGs that for most teams in the league would be second or third string.

If I’m trading TJ for a PG, it is as part of a package for one of a Kemba/Conley/Lillard/J. Holiday mold. (Not saying I want these players in particular, just talent wise).

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In2ition
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Re: Around the League: 2018 Offseason

Post by In2ition »

specialsauce wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:22 pm
In2ition wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:18 pm
specialsauce wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:13 pm
LOL. Warren for those two? Please. No way in hell
Nothing against Warren, as I really like TJ and think he's highly underrated, but this would be a good deal imo.

1. Gives the Suns 2 starting type pgs. One who is a savant of a passer and could get Ayton involved while also being 6'5" and the other as a culture setter with a bulldog mentality on defense and a good 3 pt shooter.
2. Eliminates a player that doesn't really play the way we are trying to move.
3. Gets off of Warren's long term money if he doesn't fit in, and potentially give the Suns almost $40 M in cap space next off-season.
4. Eliminates a log jam at SF and opens up minutes for Bridges.
5. Helps the Suns win more this year.
You are vastly underrating TJ are you kidding me? He’s a near 20 ppg scorer for 2 PGs that for most teams in the league would be second or third string.

If I’m trading TJ for a PG, it is as part of a package for one of a Kemba/Conley/Lillard/J. Holiday mold. (Not saying I want these players in particular, just talent wise).
I recognize that TJ is a better player than either of these guys and you are taking a slight hit on value, but they will do more to improve this team short term and long term than TJ will this year, imo.
"When we all think alike, nobody is thinking" - Walter Lippmann
"Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them." ~ Frederick Douglass

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specialsauce
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Re: Around the League: 2018 Offseason

Post by specialsauce »

In2ition wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:35 pm
specialsauce wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:22 pm
In2ition wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:18 pm
specialsauce wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:13 pm
LOL. Warren for those two? Please. No way in hell
Nothing against Warren, as I really like TJ and think he's highly underrated, but this would be a good deal imo.

1. Gives the Suns 2 starting type pgs. One who is a savant of a passer and could get Ayton involved while also being 6'5" and the other as a culture setter with a bulldog mentality on defense and a good 3 pt shooter.
2. Eliminates a player that doesn't really play the way we are trying to move.
3. Gets off of Warren's long term money if he doesn't fit in, and potentially give the Suns almost $40 M in cap space next off-season.
4. Eliminates a log jam at SF and opens up minutes for Bridges.
5. Helps the Suns win more this year.
You are vastly underrating TJ are you kidding me? He’s a near 20 ppg scorer for 2 PGs that for most teams in the league would be second or third string.

If I’m trading TJ for a PG, it is as part of a package for one of a Kemba/Conley/Lillard/J. Holiday mold. (Not saying I want these players in particular, just talent wise).
I recognize that TJ is a better player than either of these guys and you are taking a slight hit on value, but they will do more to improve this team short term and long term than TJ will this year, imo.
I agree with you on that point and I actually don’t want him on the team, but I can’t use that as justification for wasting TJs trade value. He is on a great contract, it is not like he will be difficult to move.

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ShelC
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Re: Around the League: 2018 Offseason

Post by ShelC »

SFs are a dime a dozen and TJ doesn't anything exceptionally well except score inside the 3pt line. He doesn't play D, isn't an outstanding rebounder, can't really play the 4, isn't a stretch 3pt shooter, and has about the average size of an NBA player at 6-8 220. He's a tremendously gifted scorer but guys like him are a dime a dozen. Sorry to be harsh, but he's been on the team 4 years now, was given a 50mil extension yet we've targeted a SF each of the last 2 drafts and signed another one in FA. Those aren't exactly signs he's indispensable on the court.

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specialsauce
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Re: Around the League: 2018 Offseason

Post by specialsauce »

TJ Warren was third among all SFs last year in PPG. And of the top 10, he was second behind only KD in FG%.

He’s on a very reasonable deal.
Give me a break. You act like he’s Derrick Jones Jr.

And remember, I already have said many times I don’t like him on our team.

But he has value. He is not someone we have to beg others to take on and take junk back in return. He is a legit talent on the right team.

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Re: Around the League: 2018 Offseason

Post by O_Gardino »

In2ition wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:18 pm
specialsauce wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:13 pm
LOL. Warren for those two? Please. No way in hell
Nothing against Warren, as I really like TJ and think he's highly underrated, but this would be a good deal imo.

1. Gives the Suns 2 starting type pgs. One who is a savant of a passer and could get Ayton involved while also being 6'5" and the other as a culture setter with a bulldog mentality on defense and a good 3 pt shooter.
2. Eliminates a player that doesn't really play the way we are trying to move.
3. Gets off of Warren's long term money if he doesn't fit in, and potentially give the Suns almost $40 M in cap space next off-season.
4. Eliminates a log jam at SF and opens up minutes for Bridges.
5. Helps the Suns win more this year.
I'd be tempted to do that trade for these reasons. Hell, I'd probably do it. I love that cap space, I think we gain quite a bit at the PG spot, and I don't think we loose anything at SF.
The league needs heroes, villains... and clowns. -- Aztec Sunsfan

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Split T
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Re: Around the League: 2018 Offseason

Post by Split T »

ShelC wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:09 pm
SFs are a dime a dozen and TJ doesn't anything exceptionally well except score inside the 3pt line. He doesn't play D, isn't an outstanding rebounder, can't really play the 4, isn't a stretch 3pt shooter, and has about the average size of an NBA player at 6-8 220. He's a tremendously gifted scorer but guys like him are a dime a dozen. Sorry to be harsh, but he's been on the team 4 years now, was given a 50mil extension yet we've targeted a SF each of the last 2 drafts and signed another one in FA. Those aren't exactly signs he's indispensable on the court.
I don't think the SF pool is as deep as you think. Good SF's are not a dime a dozen. Now you could argue that Warren isn't a good SF, but he's a better SF than Beverley is a PG and there are more good PG's than good SF's right now. Also, Warren is young and is a 3 pt shot away from being an elite scorer. Beverley is a one year rental.

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specialsauce
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Re: Around the League: 2018 Offseason

Post by specialsauce »

O_Gardino wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:25 pm
In2ition wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:18 pm
specialsauce wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:13 pm
LOL. Warren for those two? Please. No way in hell
Nothing against Warren, as I really like TJ and think he's highly underrated, but this would be a good deal imo.

1. Gives the Suns 2 starting type pgs. One who is a savant of a passer and could get Ayton involved while also being 6'5" and the other as a culture setter with a bulldog mentality on defense and a good 3 pt shooter.
2. Eliminates a player that doesn't really play the way we are trying to move.
3. Gets off of Warren's long term money if he doesn't fit in, and potentially give the Suns almost $40 M in cap space next off-season.
4. Eliminates a log jam at SF and opens up minutes for Bridges.
5. Helps the Suns win more this year.
I'd be tempted to do that trade for these reasons. Hell, I'd probably do it. I love that cap space, I think we gain quite a bit at the PG spot, and I don't think we loose anything at SF.
This is just crazy to me. It’s like you guys see TJ on the same level as Noah, Deng, Anderson, etc.

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Drewsprocket
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Re: Around the League: 2018 Offseason

Post by Drewsprocket »

The problem is every team has us leveraged in nearly any trade because of our high point guard need and lack of playoff success. This affects TJs value as well. McD is tasked with bringing in a starting level pg who either is a star or a veteran who can help develop Melton and Okobo. Our best shot may be getting Beverley by helping the clippers out to get Butler. TJ would be great for Minny. And I’d be fine with giving up a first rounder or TJ. I think Bev does make us a playoff contender. Ariza and Beverly would help with defensive culture and allow Booker to take his offense to the next level.

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Re: Around the League: 2018 Offseason

Post by O_Gardino »

Let me ask you this: is Warren better than Ariza? How much better than Ariza / Jackson / Bridges is he? My guess is that by the end of this season, we see that he's not that much better.

Beverly and Teodosic are much better than our young PGs right now, and next summer the cap space can be used to address actual needs.
The league needs heroes, villains... and clowns. -- Aztec Sunsfan

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Split T
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Re: Around the League: 2018 Offseason

Post by Split T »

Drewsprocket wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 6:06 pm
The problem is every team has us leveraged in nearly any trade because of our high point guard need and lack of playoff success. This affects TJs value as well. McD is tasked with bringing in a starting level pg who either is a star or a veteran who can help develop Melton and Okobo. Our best shot may be getting Beverley by helping the clippers out to get Butler. TJ would be great for Minny. And I’d be fine with giving up a first rounder or TJ. I think Bev does make us a playoff contender. Ariza and Beverly would help with defensive culture and allow Booker to take his offense to the next level.
That's why we've gotta be ok just going to battle with what we got. A 1 year rental of Beverley isn't worth getting screwed over in a trade. I'm not even convinced LA won't just waive him if they can't find a trade. His contract isn't guaranteed. No way I'm giving up more than Daniels and a 2nd.

Canaan is nothing special and is a risk coming back from injury, but at the very least, we throw Shaq out there and let him defend like crazy. He's a legitimate all-nba defender if he gets the minutes. Booker will have to carry a lot of playmaking load, but hopefully a guy like Jackson takes a step forward in that department as well. We can always find our PG during the season. And maybe Melton or Okobo surprise.

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Split T
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Re: Around the League: 2018 Offseason

Post by Split T »

O_Gardino wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 6:36 pm
Let me ask you this: is Warren better than Ariza? How much better than Ariza / Jackson / Bridges is he? My guess is that by the end of this season, we see that he's not that much better.

Beverly and Teodosic are much better than our young PGs right now, and next summer the cap space can be used to address actual needs.
I don't think that's the right way to look at it. Warren is better than Beverley or Teodosic and much younger. I'm not the biggest Warren fan and think we should look to move him, but I'm not moving him for 1 year of Beverley.

And the cap space that we'd clear isn't a reason for the trade. We'd have no problem just dumping Warren for free. He's not a bad contract.

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Drewsprocket
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Re: Around the League: 2018 Offseason

Post by Drewsprocket »

Split T wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:48 pm
Drewsprocket wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 6:06 pm
The problem is every team has us leveraged in nearly any trade because of our high point guard need and lack of playoff success. This affects TJs value as well. McD is tasked with bringing in a starting level pg who either is a star or a veteran who can help develop Melton and Okobo. Our best shot may be getting Beverley by helping the clippers out to get Butler. TJ would be great for Minny. And I’d be fine with giving up a first rounder or TJ. I think Bev does make us a playoff contender. Ariza and Beverly would help with defensive culture and allow Booker to take his offense to the next level.
That's why we've gotta be ok just going to battle with what we got. A 1 year rental of Beverley isn't worth getting screwed over in a trade. I'm not even convinced LA won't just waive him if they can't find a trade. His contract isn't guaranteed. No way I'm giving up more than Daniels and a 2nd.

Canaan is nothing special and is a risk coming back from injury, but at the very least, we throw Shaq out there and let him defend like crazy. He's a legitimate all-nba defender if he gets the minutes. Booker will have to carry a lot of playmaking load, but hopefully a guy like Jackson takes a step forward in that department as well. We can always find our PG during the season. And maybe Melton or Okobo surprise.
I see your point. Part of me wishes the suns let Okobo, Melton, Shaq, and Isiah duke it out. I just highly doubt it will work. This team blows at developing players I think because of its lack of competitive veterans who facilitate successful schemes on offense and D that lead to wins. Ariza and Beverley make us competive and enhance chemistry; which may lead to better development of playing the youth than the latter.
Moreover, it’s a players league and Booker needs to play on a competitive team before he starts demanding trades.

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Indy
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Re: Around the League: 2018 Offseason

Post by Indy »

Split T wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:51 pm
O_Gardino wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 6:36 pm
Let me ask you this: is Warren better than Ariza? How much better than Ariza / Jackson / Bridges is he? My guess is that by the end of this season, we see that he's not that much better.

Beverly and Teodosic are much better than our young PGs right now, and next summer the cap space can be used to address actual needs.
I don't think that's the right way to look at it. Warren is better than Beverley or Teodosic and much younger. I'm not the biggest Warren fan and think we should look to move him, but I'm not moving him for 1 year of Beverley.

And the cap space that we'd clear isn't a reason for the trade. We'd have no problem just dumping Warren for free. He's not a bad contract.
Like

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O_Gardino
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Re: Around the League: 2018 Offseason

Post by O_Gardino »

Split T wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:51 pm
O_Gardino wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 6:36 pm
Let me ask you this: is Warren better than Ariza? How much better than Ariza / Jackson / Bridges is he? My guess is that by the end of this season, we see that he's not that much better.

Beverly and Teodosic are much better than our young PGs right now, and next summer the cap space can be used to address actual needs.
I don't think that's the right way to look at it. Warren is better than Beverley or Teodosic and much younger. I'm not the biggest Warren fan and think we should look to move him, but I'm not moving him for 1 year of Beverley.

And the cap space that we'd clear isn't a reason for the trade. We'd have no problem just dumping Warren for free. He's not a bad contract.
His contract becomes a problem if he's the odd man out in our SF rotation, or if other teams believe he won't ever be a defender or shooter or stay healthy.
The league needs heroes, villains... and clowns. -- Aztec Sunsfan

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SDC
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Re: Around the League: 2018 Offseason

Post by SDC »

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=y8nkdvok

or why not. give up a first round pick for both bevs and milos?

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