I'm firmly in the MJ-as-GOAT camp. I think a big factor people forget are the rule changes, the hand-checking ban and the defensive changes and other things. Back when MJ played you could grab and push and touch a guy when defending him. Teams had their hands all over MJ. The Bad Boy Pistons particularly tried to rough up Jordan, a set of physical edicts passed down by coach Chuck Daly that he called The Jordan Rules.
I think MJ in today's game would be like a kid in a candy store. He would love the way that teams can't touch him, push him, handcheck him. He could be an absolute monster, averaging 35-40 ppg if he wanted. I really think he'd have just as much success if not more in today's NBA.
The one thing Lebron has done many times that MJ never did is choke in big games. MJ lost in the playoffs early in his career, but once he had grown and got his supporting cast, he was nearly unstoppable. He never ever wilted from big games. He didn't fade under pressure. If anything he thrived on it, often putting up his very best and most memorable games when things were on the line. Lebron has definitely done SOME of that, but I have so many memories of pouting Lebron face as his team is getting upset in a game or series or Finals.
I think INF said it best. The stats will look very kindly on Lebron once he's done; he'll have more games, more minutes, more stats, many nice all-time records, that sort of thing. But his Finals resume is going to be something like 3-for-8 or somesuch. MJ absolutely, positively would not allow that to happen to him. MJ would have won 6-7 of those 8 titles, guaranteed. He would have willed it to happen; he would have lifted his game and put his team on his back and gone for the jugular of his opponent's team. That's why in my mind Lebron can never eclipse MJ given the failures he's already had in the Finals and Playoffs, even if Lebron retires #1/2 in scoring or goes to 9 Finals or whatever else he'll have done by then.
No offense, but most of your post is just guessing and assumptions. How can you guarantee that Jordan would have won 6 or 7 titles? You really think Jordan is beating the warriors 3 or 4 times? Did Jordan ever win a title when the other team was favored?
I could just as easily say LeBron would have won 8 straight titles because he wouldn't have left basketball like Jordan did.
No offense, but most of your post is just guessing and assumptions. How can you guarantee that Jordan would have won 6 or 7 titles? You really think Jordan is beating the warriors 3 or 4 times? Did Jordan ever win a title when the other team was favored?
I could just as easily say LeBron would have won 8 straight titles because he wouldn't have left basketball like Jordan did.
Fine, but, how can you possibly say that the guy who went 3-for-8 in the Finals is better than the guy who went 6-for-6 in the Finals?
No offense, but most of your post is just guessing and assumptions. How can you guarantee that Jordan would have won 6 or 7 titles? You really think Jordan is beating the warriors 3 or 4 times? Did Jordan ever win a title when the other team was favored?
I could just as easily say LeBron would have won 8 straight titles because he wouldn't have left basketball like Jordan did.
Fine, but, how can you possibly say that the guy who went 3-for-8 in the Finals is better than the guy who went 6-for-6 in the Finals?
How can you say that the guy who went 6-for-6 in the Finals is better than the guy who went 7-7 with three different teams?
I'm 41 so I'm old enough to remember all of Jordan's run and all of LeBron's. There's never been a physical specimen like LeBron and to me he's the greatest mix of strength, speed, intelligence and ability that I've ever seen on a basketball court. By that logic he's the best to ever play. I think the titles argument is foolish since it's a team game.
No offense, but most of your post is just guessing and assumptions. How can you guarantee that Jordan would have won 6 or 7 titles? You really think Jordan is beating the warriors 3 or 4 times? Did Jordan ever win a title when the other team was favored?
I could just as easily say LeBron would have won 8 straight titles because he wouldn't have left basketball like Jordan did.
Fine, but, how can you possibly say that the guy who went 3-for-8 in the Finals is better than the guy who went 6-for-6 in the Finals?
Because like a few others have said, basketball is a team sport. His 6 titles is definitely part of the debate, but there has to be more than just that. Because, like others have pointed out, Bill Russell is the GOAT if titles is the ultimate factor.
I'm 41 so I'm old enough to remember all of Jordan's run and all of LeBron's. There's never been a physical specimen like LeBron and to me he's the greatest mix of strength, speed, intelligence and ability that I've ever seen on a basketball court. By that logic he's the best to ever play. I think the titles argument is foolish since it's a team game.
Any discussion of Jordan as the GOAT has to account for the fact that the first season he retired, the Bulls replaced him with Pete Meyers and made no other changes, and they still won 55 games and contended for the championship. They ultimately were eliminated from the playoffs by the Knicks and a very controversial call; the Knicks would go on to lose the Finals in 7 games. Yup, they were nearly as good with Meyers as they were with Jordan. Was Meyers near-GOAT quality? Or do Jordan’s teammates deserve more credit than they usually get?
Harden devolved into bad Harden in the second half. Too much dribbling, sloppy play, and poor decision-making. Houston's defense also fell apart tonight. Too many open looks for the Splash Brothers.
I think last nights game, gave another strong indication why we really need to draft Doncic. While the Rockets have done extremely well they have two guys that dominate their playmaking an one of them did not play. While Curry is certainly an important player he has a lot more talent and playmakers around him than Houston has. The talent disparity between Houston and Golden State is astounding. I really hope that Houston is able to pull this series out but I just cannot see it happening.
While I can see the reason why a lot of folks are in love in Ayton. He appears to have everything that you would want in a center. However to have the opportunity of adding a player like Doncic to the mix is really quite special. If Bender pans out we could have 4 legit playmakers on the court similar to what the Warriors have at all times. The Warriors are unguardable as a team and so would we. Our only issue would be defense. While very important the efficient use of each possession is paramount.
I will be fine if we draft Ayton but I really think we could be making a huge mistake if we do not draft Doncic.
I wanted Monty as our coach since D'Antoni left town. Nice choice James Jones.
Any discussion of Jordan as the GOAT has to account for the fact that the first season he retired, the Bulls replaced him with Pete Meyers and made no other changes, and they still won 55 games and contended for the championship. They ultimately were eliminated from the playoffs by the Knicks and a very controversial call; the Knicks would go on to lose the Finals in 7 games. Yup, they were nearly as good with Meyers as they were with Jordan. Was Meyers near-GOAT quality? Or do Jordan’s teammates deserve more credit than they usually get?
Jordan's teammates NEVER get the credit they deserve.
No offense, but most of your post is just guessing and assumptions. How can you guarantee that Jordan would have won 6 or 7 titles? You really think Jordan is beating the warriors 3 or 4 times? Did Jordan ever win a title when the other team was favored?
I could just as easily say LeBron would have won 8 straight titles because he wouldn't have left basketball like Jordan did.
Fine, but, how can you possibly say that the guy who went 3-for-8 in the Finals is better than the guy who went 6-for-6 in the Finals?
How can you say that the guy who went 6-for-6 in the Finals is better than the guy who went 7-7 with three different teams?
(That’s R****t H***y, BTW.)
IDK about LeBron vs Jordan, but I do think the Robbert Horry thing is interesting. Back then, he was an anomaly. Today, his playing style is taken for granted.
The league needs heroes, villains... and clowns. -- Aztec Sunsfan
If you're gonna take a quick shot to get a 2 for 1 for the love of god don't give the ball to Smart. The last possession was a half-court heave by Rozier, so congratulations, your 2 possessions were worthless.