All Things Ayton

[JeremyG]

Deandre Ayton is the other person I would point to before Robert Sarver in this situation. Ayton was excellent for most of the playoffs until the Finals. Giannis was and is clearly significantly better than Ayton, but Ayton isn't (reportedly) asking for Giannis level 2nd contract money. HE'S (reportedly) ASKING FOR MORE. (source: https://www.sbnation.com/2016/9/19/1265 ... 00-million)

Lol what? You're just gonna ignore the fact that Giannis' extension was in the summer of 2016 when he was a worse player than Ayton is, after three years in the league?

I have a problem with him trying to cut corners to get there and it resulting in a 25 game suspension that likely cost the Suns a playoff berth in the 2019-20 season.

That's false. He took a diuretic to mask his marijuana use. It had nothing to do with PEDs.

He can shoot, I'll give him that, but not without also acknowledging that his tendency is to take less efficient shots that don't benefit team success.

Yeah that explains why he had the highest field goal percentage in NBA playoff history (and has consistently efficient stats in the regular season).

Offering that kind of player a max contract will not lead to an NBA title and I think most NBA executives would agree.

Well Woj says you're wrong:

"Many executives league-wide expected the Ayton max deal would be complete in short order this offseason, and now his possible emergence in the restricted free agent market could impact how team's navigate salary cap space next summer. Throughout the conversations, the Suns' stance had been consistently been the organization didn't believe Ayton was a max player -- a value assessment that's been met with surprise elsewhere in the league."

[Indy]

The simplest way to look at this is, we had a team that got to the Finals and was 2 games away from a title. We could have locked that team up and kept them together for the next 3-4 years to make runs at titles together, and ALL WE HAD TO DO was simply re-sign our existing talent to fair market value. But instead, we have chosen to fuck around and lowball a key player in the interest of saving Robert Sarver some money.

I can't believe we are willing to shoot ourselves in the foot like this. It'd be one thing if we were a young team that hadn't won anything; we'd be asking ourselves whether Ayton could perform at a higher level, whether this core is capable of contending. But WE JUST SAW IT. Exactly how many dollars you think Ayton deserves pales in comparison to the indisputable fact that we just saw that this team is capable of getting all the way to the finish line for a title. Why wouldn't you keep that together? Why risk fouling it all up by doing something like this?

Everyone took less money to play here, including Book. Why shouldn't Ayton?

Actually, Booker had escalators up to the full supermax for MVP, DPOY, and 1st team All-NBA.

He did not get the 30%--his was only 27.5%, iirc.

[Indy]

The simplest way to look at this is, we had a team that got to the Finals and was 2 games away from a title. We could have locked that team up and kept them together for the next 3-4 years to make runs at titles together, and ALL WE HAD TO DO was simply re-sign our existing talent to fair market value. But instead, we have chosen to fuck around and lowball a key player in the interest of saving Robert Sarver some money.

I can't believe we are willing to shoot ourselves in the foot like this. It'd be one thing if we were a young team that hadn't won anything; we'd be asking ourselves whether Ayton could perform at a higher level, whether this core is capable of contending. But WE JUST SAW IT. Exactly how many dollars you think Ayton deserves pales in comparison to the indisputable fact that we just saw that this team is capable of getting all the way to the finish line for a title. Why wouldn't you keep that together? Why risk fouling it all up by doing something like this?

WE STILL HAVE COMPLETE CONTROL OVER WHETHER AYTON STAYS ON THE TEAM

But he's CLEARLY unhappy. I guess you want a disinterested, unhappy young player in the locker room that's going to be asked about it all season long as a distraction. Because that doesn't mean shit. WE HAVE COMPLETE CONTROL OVER HIM!

Right. Every change he gets he talks about how he can do more, but we don't let him. He was unhappy in his role in the playoffs, but that is exactly what we need him to be...

Why? So we can come up short again instead of utilizing our extremely gifted 7-footer?

If you think the reason we lost the finals was because Monty didn't use Ayton appropriately, and it wasn't because NOBODY on our team could stop Giannis, including our best defensive big that you want to pay $207M, then I don't know what to tell you.

[Indy]

Deandre Ayton is the other person I would point to before Robert Sarver in this situation. Ayton was excellent for most of the playoffs until the Finals. Giannis was and is clearly significantly better than Ayton, but Ayton isn't (reportedly) asking for Giannis level 2nd contract money. HE'S (reportedly) ASKING FOR MORE. (source: https://www.sbnation.com/2016/9/19/1265 ... 00-million)

Lol what? You're just gonna ignore the fact that Giannis' extension was in the summer of 2016 when he was a worse player than Ayton is, after three years in the league?

I have a problem with him trying to cut corners to get there and it resulting in a 25 game suspension that likely cost the Suns a playoff berth in the 2019-20 season.

That's false. He took a diuretic to mask his marijuana use. It had nothing to do with PEDs.

He can shoot, I'll give him that, but not without also acknowledging that his tendency is to take less efficient shots that don't benefit team success.

Yeah that explains why he had the highest field goal percentage in NBA playoff history (and has consistently efficient stats in the regular season).

Offering that kind of player a max contract will not lead to an NBA title and I think most NBA executives would agree.

Well Woj says you're wrong:

"Many executives league-wide expected the Ayton max deal would be complete in short order this offseason, and now his possible emergence in the restricted free agent market could impact how team's navigate salary cap space next summer. Throughout the conversations, the Suns' stance had been consistently been the organization didn't believe Ayton was a max player -- a value assessment that's been met with surprise elsewhere in the league."

The story on his failed drug test was about cutting weight to get into camp shape, from what I remember. He regularly showed up out of shape.

[Flagrant Fowl]

Deandre Ayton is the other person I would point to before Robert Sarver in this situation. Ayton was excellent for most of the playoffs until the Finals. Giannis was and is clearly significantly better than Ayton, but Ayton isn't (reportedly) asking for Giannis level 2nd contract money. HE'S (reportedly) ASKING FOR MORE. (source: https://www.sbnation.com/2016/9/19/1265 ... 00-million)

Lol what? You're just gonna ignore the fact that Giannis' extension was in the summer of 2016 when he was a worse player than Ayton is, after three years in the league?

Giannis' 2015-16 season was better than any single season that Ayton has had yet. The numbers back it up.

I have a problem with him trying to cut corners to get there and it resulting in a 25 game suspension that likely cost the Suns a playoff berth in the 2019-20 season.

That's false. He took a diuretic to mask his marijuana use. It had nothing to do with PEDs.

Prove it. Even if that were the case, which I'm skeptical of, he still tried to cheat his way out of it instead of taking responsibility for his initial actions.

He can shoot, I'll give him that, but not without also acknowledging that his tendency is to take less efficient shots that don't benefit team success.

Yeah that explains why he had the highest field goal percentage in NBA playoff history (and has consistently efficient stats in the regular season).

Did I not say he was excellent in the playoffs? And find me a big man who's less efficient with Chris Paul. But by all means, pay him off of a 20 game performance.

Offering that kind of player a max contract will not lead to an NBA title and I think most NBA executives would agree.

Well Woj says you're wrong:

"Many executives league-wide expected the Ayton max deal would be complete in short order this offseason, and now his possible emergence in the restricted free agent market could impact how team's navigate salary cap space next summer. Throughout the conversations, the Suns' stance had been consistently been the organization didn't believe Ayton was a max player -- a value assessment that's been met with surprise elsewhere in the league."

Other general managers are looking out for the best interest of their own teams? Good thing we have Woj to report on that.

[Indy]

The more I think about it, the more I think Jones had a bigger say than everyone is assuming. Or at the very least, was given an amount he could spend over the next XX number of years and was told to make it work.

Maybe Jones is planning for a big FA acquisition in two years when CP3's contract moves to the partially guaranteed phase and book is due for his extension.

[JeremyG]

Deandre Ayton is the other person I would point to before Robert Sarver in this situation. Ayton was excellent for most of the playoffs until the Finals. Giannis was and is clearly significantly better than Ayton, but Ayton isn't (reportedly) asking for Giannis level 2nd contract money. HE'S (reportedly) ASKING FOR MORE. (source: https://www.sbnation.com/2016/9/19/1265 ... 00-million)

Lol what? You're just gonna ignore the fact that Giannis' extension was in the summer of 2016 when he was a worse player than Ayton is, after three years in the league?

Giannis' 2015-16 season was better than any single season that Ayton has had yet. The numbers back it up.

Really? 16.9ppg and 7.7rpg on 50.6% FG in 35.3 mpg?

I have a problem with him trying to cut corners to get there and it resulting in a 25 game suspension that likely cost the Suns a playoff berth in the 2019-20 season.

That's false. He took a diuretic to mask his marijuana use. It had nothing to do with PEDs.

Prove it. Even if that were the case, which I'm skeptical of, he still tried to cheat his way out of it instead of taking responsibility for his initial actions.

He claimed he didn't know what was in a supplement he was given. But I believe there were sources at the time saying it was to mask marijuana use. Either way, there was no evidence the diuretic had anything to do with "cutting corners."

He can shoot, I'll give him that, but not without also acknowledging that his tendency is to take less efficient shots that don't benefit team success.

Yeah that explains why he had the highest field goal percentage in NBA playoff history (and has consistently efficient stats in the regular season).

Did I not say he was excellent in the playoffs? And find me a big man who's less efficient with Chris Paul. But by all means, pay him off of a 20 game performance.

His high efficiency stats weren't just in the playoffs, or just last season. I don't know how you can criticize him for choosing "less efficient shots" when he is one of the most efficient shooters in the league.

Offering that kind of player a max contract will not lead to an NBA title and I think most NBA executives would agree.

Well Woj says you're wrong:

"Many executives league-wide expected the Ayton max deal would be complete in short order this offseason, and now his possible emergence in the restricted free agent market could impact how team's navigate salary cap space next summer. Throughout the conversations, the Suns' stance had been consistently been the organization didn't believe Ayton was a max player -- a value assessment that's been met with surprise elsewhere in the league."

Other general managers are looking out for the best interest of their own teams? Good thing we have Woj to report on that.

So you don't believe the other teams actually consider him to be a max player?

[JeremyG]

The simplest way to look at this is, we had a team that got to the Finals and was 2 games away from a title. We could have locked that team up and kept them together for the next 3-4 years to make runs at titles together, and ALL WE HAD TO DO was simply re-sign our existing talent to fair market value. But instead, we have chosen to fuck around and lowball a key player in the interest of saving Robert Sarver some money.

I can't believe we are willing to shoot ourselves in the foot like this. It'd be one thing if we were a young team that hadn't won anything; we'd be asking ourselves whether Ayton could perform at a higher level, whether this core is capable of contending. But WE JUST SAW IT. Exactly how many dollars you think Ayton deserves pales in comparison to the indisputable fact that we just saw that this team is capable of getting all the way to the finish line for a title. Why wouldn't you keep that together? Why risk fouling it all up by doing something like this?

Everyone took less money to play here, including Book. Why shouldn't Ayton?

Actually, Booker had escalators up to the full supermax for MVP, DPOY, and 1st team All-NBA.

He did not get the 30%--his was only 27.5%, iirc.

I think someone posted on here recently that it was something like 27.5% for 3rd team All-NBA, 28.5% for 2nd team All-NBA, 30% for 1st team All-NBA/MVP/DPOY.

[virtual9mm]

I will defend James Jones. I think he knows what he's doing...I think. Ayton has never played mad. I would like to think they are motivating him to really "become" that max player and seeing if he can play mad.

I remember all the games that he sleep walked through games just as I remember the playoff games where he was a defensive stalwart. I think the front office does too.

I'm with you and FF. Max contracts are a bargain if the player clearly deserves it. However, they can kill a franchise if they are spent on borderline players who are being paid not on production but rather market value.

I'm an Ayton believer. And I think that this season will bring out a beast in him and that he will prove worthy in the end. But he needed that reality check.

If he fails...well...at least we didn't pay him a ridonculous contract.

And do we want to pay a guy that mails it in all season once he's paid, constantly being prodded to play hard and aggressive? I think I've let my initial frustration boil over and thought about things a little more (a good dinner and a nice walk with your toddler can do wonders). If this is what it takes to get a consistent and aggressive Ayton, maybe it's for the best.

Yup -- maybe he needs one more push to become truly great in a truly consistent way.

I'm not surprised that so many of the same people who were claiming that Ayton would never amount to anything as recently as 7 months ago are so upset that he's not getting an auto-max after one stellar postseason of play. I've been one of the most consistent Ayton supporters around these parts and I'm ok with him not getting the max. Let him prove that he can be an 18-12 DPOY candidate for an entire year and then we can gladly pay him a max.

Frankly, I think that a bunch of the max contracts (especially the Porter deal) will end up being millstones.

[Flagrant Fowl]

Deandre Ayton is the other person I would point to before Robert Sarver in this situation. Ayton was excellent for most of the playoffs until the Finals. Giannis was and is clearly significantly better than Ayton, but Ayton isn't (reportedly) asking for Giannis level 2nd contract money. HE'S (reportedly) ASKING FOR MORE. (source: https://www.sbnation.com/2016/9/19/1265 ... 00-million)

Lol what? You're just gonna ignore the fact that Giannis' extension was in the summer of 2016 when he was a worse player than Ayton is, after three years in the league?

Giannis' 2015-16 season was better than any single season that Ayton has had yet. The numbers back it up.

Really? 16.9ppg and 7.7rpg on 50.6% FG in 35.3 mpg?

80 GP, 4.3 APG, 1.2 SPG, 1.4 BPG, 5.1 FTA PG. Yes, really. That season was better than any single season of Ayton's. It's really only slightly close in the stats you chose to cherry pick. Giannis was clearly better overall.

I have a problem with him trying to cut corners to get there and it resulting in a 25 game suspension that likely cost the Suns a playoff berth in the 2019-20 season.

That's false. He took a diuretic to mask his marijuana use. It had nothing to do with PEDs.

Prove it. Even if that were the case, which I'm skeptical of, he still tried to cheat his way out of it instead of taking responsibility for his initial actions.

He claimed he didn't know what was in a supplement he was given. But I believe there were sources at the time saying it was to mask marijuana use. Either way, there was no evidence the diuretic had anything to do with "cutting corners."

So the guy who's paid millions of dollars to maintain peak physical condition didn't know what he was putting into his body? OK, sure. Then he's an idiot. Is that really better?

There were no sources about him using it to cover up marijuana. He was trying to cut weight. This is a dumb debate so it'll be the last I have of it with you.

He can shoot, I'll give him that, but not without also acknowledging that his tendency is to take less efficient shots that don't benefit team success.

Yeah that explains why he had the highest field goal percentage in NBA playoff history (and has consistently efficient stats in the regular season).

Did I not say he was excellent in the playoffs? And find me a big man who's less efficient with Chris Paul. But by all means, pay him off of a 20 game performance.

His high efficiency stats weren't just in the playoffs, or just last season. I don't know how you can criticize him for choosing "less efficient shots" when he is one of the most efficient shooters in the league.

He choses less efficient shots when he's given the freedom to take them. Part of the reason for his high efficiency is that he's massive and gets a lot of easy shots close to the rim. In fact, even some of his near the rim shots are less efficient because he refuses to dunk the ball most of the time.

Offering that kind of player a max contract will not lead to an NBA title and I think most NBA executives would agree.

Well Woj says you're wrong:

"Many executives league-wide expected the Ayton max deal would be complete in short order this offseason, and now his possible emergence in the restricted free agent market could impact how team's navigate salary cap space next summer. Throughout the conversations, the Suns' stance had been consistently been the organization didn't believe Ayton was a max player -- a value assessment that's been met with surprise elsewhere in the league."

Other general managers are looking out for the best interest of their own teams? Good thing we have Woj to report on that.

So you don't believe the other teams actually consider him to be a max player?

I believe every team has their own roster and cap situation. Is he a max player for the Spurs? Probably. Is he for the Warriors? Unlikely.

All I'm saying is that it's against NBA rules for opposing GM's to make on the record comments about players on other teams. So whatever Woj "reports" is just rumor and/or gamesmanship by other GM's around the league. Failing to grasp the context of these "reports" is a big part of the problem in sports journalism.

I'll end with this; clearly you've committed yourself to not at all changing your mind about this situation and that's fine. But going on and on about it with talking points that are mostly conjecture or based on partial knowledge isn't going to convince anyone who's really trying to examine this situation from all angles. It's clearly not just, "Sarver cheap. Ayton disrespected superstar. Pay him." like you've made it out to be for several days running. So agree to disagree and know that I'm not going back and forth over some of this stuff with you anymore.

[virtual9mm]

By the way, I'm betting that this is what James Jones (yes, not Sarver) is thinking, should Ayton prove himself:

The Suns can also take the possibility of a shorter offer sheet off the table by giving Ayton the rarely seen "maximum qualifying offer" -- made just once since it was introduced, by the Chicago Bulls to Jimmy Butler as a restricted free agent in 2015. The maximum qualifying offer would guarantee Ayton a full five-year max if he wants it while forcing any offer sheet to be a minimum of three years, not counting options.

https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/ ... igger-risk

[JeremyG]

Deandre Ayton is the other person I would point to before Robert Sarver in this situation. Ayton was excellent for most of the playoffs until the Finals. Giannis was and is clearly significantly better than Ayton, but Ayton isn't (reportedly) asking for Giannis level 2nd contract money. HE'S (reportedly) ASKING FOR MORE. (source: https://www.sbnation.com/2016/9/19/1265 ... 00-million)

Lol what? You're just gonna ignore the fact that Giannis' extension was in the summer of 2016 when he was a worse player than Ayton is, after three years in the league?

Giannis' 2015-16 season was better than any single season that Ayton has had yet. The numbers back it up.

Really? 16.9ppg and 7.7rpg on 50.6% FG in 35.3 mpg?

80 GP, 4.3 APG, 1.2 SPG, 1.4 BPG, 5.1 FTA PG. Yes, really. That season was better than any single season of Ayton's. It's really only slightly close in the stats you chose to cherry pick. Giannis was clearly better overall.

Good grief, I don't see how you can seriously think those stats are "clearly better" than Ayton's.

Since you said "any single season" for Ayton, let's compare the numbers to Ayton's second season (although that was his lowest FG%), per 36 minutes (since Giannis got more minutes):

GA vs. DA
80 > 38 GP (but Ayton has not had significant absences otherwise)
.506 < .546 FG%
17.2 < 20.1 ppg
7.8 < 12.7 rpg
1.4 < 1.7 bpg
1.2 > 0.8 spg
4.4 > 2.1 apg
5.2 > 2.6 FTA

Or even if you just use straight per game stats:

GA vs. DA
80 > 38 GP
.506 < .546 FG%
16.9 < 18.2 ppg
7.7 < 11.5 rpg
1.4 < 1.5 bpg
1.2 > 0.7 spg
4.3 > 1.9 apg
5.1 > 2.3 FTA

He can shoot, I'll give him that, but not without also acknowledging that his tendency is to take less efficient shots that don't benefit team success.

Yeah that explains why he had the highest field goal percentage in NBA playoff history (and has consistently efficient stats in the regular season).

Did I not say he was excellent in the playoffs? And find me a big man who's less efficient with Chris Paul. But by all means, pay him off of a 20 game performance.

His high efficiency stats weren't just in the playoffs, or just last season. I don't know how you can criticize him for choosing "less efficient shots" when he is one of the most efficient shooters in the league.

He choses less efficient shots when he's given the freedom to take them. Part of the reason for his high efficiency is that he's massive and gets a lot of easy shots close to the rim. In fact, even some of his near the rim shots are less efficient because he refuses to dunk the ball most of the time.

So when will you be happy? If he shoots 70% from the field? 80%?

[JeremyG]

I'm not surprised that so many of the same people who were claiming that Ayton would never amount to anything as recently as 7 months ago are so upset that he's not getting an auto-max after one stellar postseason of play. I've been one of the most consistent Ayton supporters around these parts and I'm ok with him not getting the max.

Who? Certainly not me. I've been a consistent Ayton supporter since joining the forum. Check my join date--Ayton is the whole reason I joined, because I was excited to discuss Suns basketball again.

[The Bobster]

"He can shoot, I'll give him that, but not without also acknowledging that his tendency is to take less efficient shots that don't benefit team success."

This one I'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around. The two best eFG%'s on the team last year were Bridges (.643) and Ayton (.629). Just because Ayton isn't shooting 3-pointers doesn't mean he's not efficient. A 40% 3Pt FG shooter is a great thing to have, but those points aren't worth any more than the points scored by a 60% 2-point shooter.

[Flagrant Fowl]

My intention wasn't to compare 2-point and 3-point shots, but rather his tendency to take 15-20 foot jumpshots. Those are less efficient shots than the shots closer to the rim because he's not drawing fouls, and typically shots further from the basket are harder to make.

I probably misused the term "efficient" when I should've probably said "effective".

[JeremyG]

[Shabazz]

[Mori Chu]

[jonh]

I am incredibly frustrated with this situation.

Would the Suns like to see more consistency from Ayton before giving him a max offer? Yes
Do the Suns want to keep Ayton? Yes
Will someone on the market offer Ayton the max (and so the Suns will have to pay the max anyways)? Yes
Will not offering the max now massively disrupt team chemistry, and make it much less likely Ayton sacrifices for the team? Absolutely

The weird short-sighted, penny-pinching logic Sarver repeatedly uses in these type of situations has been shown to be detrimental to team performance again and again and again. Its tarshishes the brand to other potential free agents, fosters anger towards the team by former players, makes it harder to cheer for the team, and ultimately shortens the window for contention.

[virtual9mm]

I'm not surprised that so many of the same people who were claiming that Ayton would never amount to anything as recently as 7 months ago are so upset that he's not getting an auto-max after one stellar postseason of play. I've been one of the most consistent Ayton supporters around these parts and I'm ok with him not getting the max.

Who? Certainly not me. I've been a consistent Ayton supporter since joining the forum. Check my join date--Ayton is the whole reason I joined, because I was excited to discuss Suns basketball again.

Not really talking about you per se, lots of other folks.