All Things Ayton

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The Bobster
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by The Bobster »

There's a whole lot of speculation on things we really don't know for sure creeping into the trade speculation going on here.

Personally, I'm not trading him for a bag of magic beans. If you have to match an offer and have to trade him later, then that's what you do. If you have to match the offer to Ayton and look to trade somebody else later, that's also a possibility.
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Indy
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by Indy »

And what if he is adamant he won't play here anymore? You sign him to +30M/year while he tanks his value?

There is some chatter that the relationship between the Suns (coach, players, GM) has gotten worse since the end of Game 7.

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Superbone
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by Superbone »

The Bobster wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 10:31 am
There's a whole lot of speculation on things we really don't know for sure creeping into the trade speculation going on here.

Personally, I'm not trading him for a bag of magic beans. If you have to match an offer and have to trade him later, then that's what you do. If you have to match the offer to Ayton and look to trade somebody else later, that's also a possibility.
You're right. We don't have all the info. We have no choice but to trust Jones and company that they do what's best for the team. Unfortunately, there is a precedent there where we don't get back as much value as we're giving away. Mr. frequent head injury comes to mind. So I won't be surprised if we end up on the bad side of an Ayton deal. However, Jones has been really good about improving the team even if we end up on the wrong side of a trade. The biggest issue which we can't fix now is that they drafted the wrong guy and now they're paying for it.
"It should burn. It'll probably burn forever. But last season is done." - James Jones

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JeremyG
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by JeremyG »

Split T wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 10:01 am
specialsauce wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 8:52 am
If we don’t like the return we should keep him. Absolutely no reason to not retain him if it’s not going to improve our team in a way to help us contend for a championship.
What if the relationship has been damaged and he’s not interested in playing his role anymore? I just don’t think it’s gonna be as easy as some of you think to just bring him back. I don’t think we want him and I don’t think he wants to be here.

I hope we can get something valuable in return, but none of us really know what offers will be out there. If he’s willing to come back and play within the system, I'd agree with you, but I have my doubts on his willingness to do that.
And if that's true, who damaged the relationship? The Suns refusing to extend him last offseason destroyed everything, like I was predicting last summer when everyone told me I was crazy to even be worrying about any damage to the relationship or it ending up in a Joe Johnson situation of being forced to sign-and-trade for mediocre value.

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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by JeremyG »

https://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2022 ... -saric-nba
Occam’s Razor would tell us that Sarver and his finances have to be involved. It is the one theory that at least makes logical sense and is consistent with Sarver’s history. First it defies logic already that they want to trade away a young talented player who has gotten better every year, and whose contract would be in line with his production and be a bargain in the coming years. If it is truly a basketball decision and James Jones and Monty don’t think DA is worth paying, then every action the Suns have taken in the last year has been inconsistent and counter-productive to their goal of trading him. They should be taking actions that MAXIMIZE Ayton’s value instead of minimizing it:
  • Paying DA last year would have avoided the base level compensation rules that limit what the Suns can get back this off season in a Sign and Trade
  • Increasing DA’s usage and touches (even within the offense) last season would have pushed his stats into another level that would have driven fan interest and perceived value
  • Singling out DA after game 7 and then going silent allowed media and fans to churn up the rumor mill and diminish his perceived value around the league even further
If it is not the Sarver angle, and this is how Jones has gone about trading DA, then he has no business leading an NBA franchise because the team’s actions have decimated what the Suns might in return for DA over the last 12 months. Obviously the Sarver being cheap angle is a more simple and obvious explanation.

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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by JeremyG »

Indy wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 12:11 pm
And what if he is adamant he won't play here anymore? You sign him to +30M/year while he tanks his value?

There is some chatter that the relationship between the Suns (coach, players, GM) has gotten worse since the end of Game 7.
If the relationships have gotten worse amongst the whole team, then why worry about Ayton?

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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by Drewsprocket »

Burn it all down dude. You’re right, they killed the franchise, squandered the whole championship window, and now we will all have to watch in bitter horror as Ayton dominaytes the League and any Center who came before and after him; ripping down 20 boards per game, beating his guy down court, staying locked in with laser focus, dunking over anybody, and breaking ankles with his improved handles after signing elsewhere for a max deal and working his ass off this summer to prove the suns wrong.
This is Sarver’s doing. JJ’s capitulation to terrible tyrant. An errand boy. This is Monty’s undoubted failure to inspire his sure thing number 1 center. And we as fans have failed to appreciate what this man is to become.

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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by JeremyG »

The "squandered the whole championship window" is 100% accurate.

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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by Drewsprocket »

JeremyG wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 6:40 pm
The "squandered the whole championship window" is 100% accurate.
What are you gonna do now?

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Split T
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by Split T »

JeremyG wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 6:15 pm
Split T wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 10:01 am
specialsauce wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 8:52 am
If we don’t like the return we should keep him. Absolutely no reason to not retain him if it’s not going to improve our team in a way to help us contend for a championship.
What if the relationship has been damaged and he’s not interested in playing his role anymore? I just don’t think it’s gonna be as easy as some of you think to just bring him back. I don’t think we want him and I don’t think he wants to be here.

I hope we can get something valuable in return, but none of us really know what offers will be out there. If he’s willing to come back and play within the system, I'd agree with you, but I have my doubts on his willingness to do that.
And if that's true, who damaged the relationship? The Suns refusing to extend him last offseason destroyed everything, like I was predicting last summer when everyone told me I was crazy to even be worrying about any damage to the relationship or it ending up in a Joe Johnson situation of being forced to sign-and-trade for mediocre value.
It wasn’t the refusing to extend him last summer that’s the problem. I think they just clearly don’t think he’s a max guy. If they had told him go out this year and repeat your playoff performance all year and we’ll give you the max, then reassured him as the season ended that he was getting a max, we’d have no problem. So timing wasn’t the problem, they just don’t think he’s worth it. Not last summer, not now.

Now in hindsight, your next post does bring up some good points. Signing him last summer would make a trade easier now, but we can make a lot of trades happen and his trade value itself isn’t any different.

I don’t agree with the point about feeding him touches to raise his value. We weren’t focused on raising his value, we were focused on winning and Monty played him the way he thought would win us the most games. While I don’t think we were set on trading him, I do think we obviously had it on our minds. We were all taken aback a little by the Sabonis rumors, but I think Jones would have made that trade had we not been cruising through the regular season. So while in hindsight it might seem like some mistakes were made, they were made to try and win a championship. Hard to fault them there, just about everyone had them as the title favorites.

It sucks, I wish the path forward was more clear and had better options, but I’m also gonna withhold judgement until I see what Jones actually does. I guess it’s the optimist in me, but I just don’t see the point in getting worked up about the bad things that might happen, I’d feel stupid if we then ended up with like KAT, KD, or Siakam.

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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by Drewsprocket »

If he does re-sign, they will need to squeeze more out of him on offense than having CP3 create for him. He’d need to develop a Lamarcus Aldridge type game that’s less dependent on guard play. He’s never been comfortable down low. Anyway it’s probably a foregone conclusion. There’s enough history with him that shows why he’s not considered a max guy. But it’s a Rorschach test at this point.

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Indy
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by Indy »

Did everyone see the now-deleted tweets about the Ayton/Book dust up?

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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by Indy »

This has some screen shots. I don't know the credibility of the poster, but that story does seem to fit what the rumors are. There is nothing about CP3 and Ayton, or even Monty and Ayton. It was Book getting on him for not trying hard, DA going back at him, and then Monty supporting what Book was saying.


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Superbone
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by Superbone »

So the source is DA's tattoo artist? OK. Plus, these things happen all the time in locker rooms. These athletes are highly competitive. Remember the Heat fighting on the court amongst themselves? Of course everybody was going to be extremely frustrated after what happened with Dallas. These dust ups are natural and time heals all wounds. You don't break up a team because of incidents like this. You give it some time to cool off and then have a discussion, man to man. I'm always hearing other athletes saying these types of things are common in locker rooms.
"It should burn. It'll probably burn forever. But last season is done." - James Jones

"I want to be who I think I am." - Frank Kaminsky

"I don't think I've ever been that angry shooting a basketball." - Cam Johnson

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Split T
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by Split T »

I will say, the Ayton we saw against New Orleans was very nice…trying to figure out what changed in the Dallas series?



I think we’ve all seen that DA doesn’t really like contact. He avoids it and I think this video shows that. He likes space and when he can operate in space, he’s great. He’s got a good jump shot and great touch in the paint. But if you crowd him, he gets uncomfortable. And it doesn’t always matter how big the person crowding him is, he’s just simply not going to bully his way to the hoop.

So while the physicality of Valunciunas can bother him, I think the slowness of Valunciunas forced him to give Ayton space and that is exactly what Ayton wants. We also greatly needed Ayton with Booker out and props to him for answering the call. I can see why this series would give hope to the Ayton stans that he could be a featured piece of the offense. He was attacking off the dribble, hitting jump shots, jump hooks, turn around fade-aways…the question is what changed to keep him from doing that against Dallas?

I don’t know the answer exactly, but I do think he’s a better fit with CP3 then he is with Booker. So maybe some of that was Booker being back? I also wonder if the Mavs ability to crowd him with quicker, smaller defenders prevented him from getting comfortable. I just know we could have used the Ayton from the video above and we didn’t get it.

But I get why people would still believe. I don’t know what Ayton becomes, but I hope he finds success. Especially if he ends up staying around somehow.

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The Bobster
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by The Bobster »

Ayton vs Pels - 35.0 Min, 20.5 Pts, 9.8 Reb, 2.5 Ast, 1.2 Blk, 70.0 FG%, 75.0 FT%
Ayton vs Mavs - 26.8 Min, 15.7 Pts, 8.1 Reb, 1.0 Ast, 0.4 Blk, 58.3 FG%, 57.1 FT%
Ayton Total - 30.5 Min, 17.9 Pts, 8.9 Reb, 1.7 Ast, 0.8 Blk, 64.0 FT%, 63.6 FT%

So he basically scored and rebounded at the same rate, he just didn't have the gaudy shooting %.
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SunsRIt
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by SunsRIt »

Superbone wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 12:03 pm
So the source is DA's tattoo artist? OK. Plus, these things happen all the time in locker rooms. These athletes are highly competitive. Remember the Heat fighting on the court amongst themselves? Of course everybody was going to be extremely frustrated after what happened with Dallas. These dust ups are natural and time heals all wounds. You don't break up a team because of incidents like this. You give it some time to cool off and then have a discussion, man to man. I'm always hearing other athletes saying these types of things are common in locker rooms.
I would guess tattoo artists are kinda like hair dressers. They hear all the news(gossip) while people are spending hours getting tattooed.

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The Bobster
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by The Bobster »

The one who was really terrible against Dallas was Bridges - 35.6 Min, 9.9 Pts, 4.9 Reb, 40.6 FG%, 27.8 3P%
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SunsRIt
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by SunsRIt »

The Bobster wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 12:43 pm
The one who was really terrible against Dallas was Bridges - 35.6 Min, 9.9 Pts, 4.9 Reb, 40.6 FG%, 27.8 3P%
That’s blasphemy Bobster, you’re not aloud to say bad things about Bridges.

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The Bobster
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by The Bobster »

SunsRIt wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 12:46 pm
The Bobster wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 12:43 pm
The one who was really terrible against Dallas was Bridges - 35.6 Min, 9.9 Pts, 4.9 Reb, 40.6 FG%, 27.8 3P%
That’s blasphemy Bobster, you’re not aloud to say bad things about Bridges.
Hey, we all love Bridges, but he's a complimentary piece, not a cornerstone.
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Available from Scarecrow Press at - https://rowman.com/ISBN/9780810890695

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