All Things Ayton

Discussion of the league and of our favorite team.
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Split T
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by Split T »

JeremyG wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:50 pm
Split T wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:02 pm
I think I’m warming up to the idea of Detroit as an Ayton trade piece. Detroit seems like the place most connected to him and Jerami Grant is the obvious piece returning. Before I said I’d only be in favor if whoever they draft at 5 is coming as well. I still feel that way, but I’m at the point where I’d be very happy with that return. Honestly as I think about it, short of a KD, KAT, or Siakam trade, I think Grant and 5 is about as good as we could get. Assuming Ivey is the pick at 5. We get a 3rd guard who can double as CP3’s successor(which as I think about it, is definitely the most important thing we need looking forward and we need it very soon) and we add a 2nd/3rd option right now in Grant. I’d then look to move Crowder for a 5…haven’t looked into who that would be, but…

CP3/Booker/Bridges/Grant/New 5
Ivey/CamJ/Saric

You also could have some sort of combination of Payne/Shamet/Craig/Wainright/Biyombo off the bench too or move them around.

John Collins seems to be the other guy most connected to an Ayton trade and I like that too. He’s young and would factor in to the future. He’s also both a lob threat and a pick n pop threat, so he could play with any of our guards. I do worry about position a bit with him. Does he play the 5 or does he play the 4? Probably a bit of both, but I’m mostly thinking what his position would be in our go to lineups.
I thought you all said that Ayton's 81.2 Assisted FGM% was unacceptable...but Collins' 82.9% is fine?
This is not the 3rd creator move…though I do think he has a more versatile offensive game than Ayton and has more juice off the dribble. Part of the problem is he plays in a Trae young offense and Trae doesn’t know how to share the creation load. He’s also cheaper than Ayton. Still, he doesn’t fully answer the 3rd creator question and we’d need to address that somehow.

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Indy
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by Indy »

Yeah, this doesn't fix our "we only have 2 guys that can dribble" and our "we only have to guys that can create for themselves or others" problem.

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specialsauce
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by specialsauce »

Superbone wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:14 pm
specialsauce wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:03 pm
Superbone wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:59 am
TOO wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:49 am
Indy wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:25 am


No one is saying he sucks. Almost everyone here would agree he is a top 60 player, and top 10 at his position. We are just disagreeing on how much of the team's future should be on his shoulders.
I'd go farther and say he's a top 5 C, but he's just not max guy, most C aren't worth a max because of the way the game is played now. The 2 max guys can also stretch the floor and one of them is basically a 7ft PG.
Just the facts, man. I'd love to keep him on a reasonable salary but that's not happening.
The facts are that this team had a higher chance for a championship with Ayton on this roster than Turkoglu, Warrick and Childress. Them is the facts. Finances or no finances. I don’t give a fuck about no Bobby Savers bank account. That’s his problem. I’m not going to get behind going cheap and getting three spare tires in exchange for a pirelli
Very true. Those guys are way past their prime. That indeed is a fact.

And you can say whatever you want about "Savers bank account" but another fact is that he's not going to spend well into the luxury tax year after year. He just doesn't have that kind of dough. See Bobster's comparison of the Warriors to us. You can continue to live in dreamland but that's not reality, dude. But fantasize away!
Well the fact is that I don’t give two shits about Bobby’s accounts. I won’t adjust my expectations of fielding a contender just because Bobby’s cheap ass doesn’t want to spend for it. That’s his problem to manage his fan base or sell the team. I’d root for a different team before I accepted mediocrity.

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Indy
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by Indy »

specialsauce wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 1:56 pm
Superbone wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:14 pm
specialsauce wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:03 pm
Superbone wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:59 am
TOO wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:49 am


I'd go farther and say he's a top 5 C, but he's just not max guy, most C aren't worth a max because of the way the game is played now. The 2 max guys can also stretch the floor and one of them is basically a 7ft PG.
Just the facts, man. I'd love to keep him on a reasonable salary but that's not happening.
The facts are that this team had a higher chance for a championship with Ayton on this roster than Turkoglu, Warrick and Childress. Them is the facts. Finances or no finances. I don’t give a fuck about no Bobby Savers bank account. That’s his problem. I’m not going to get behind going cheap and getting three spare tires in exchange for a pirelli
Very true. Those guys are way past their prime. That indeed is a fact.

And you can say whatever you want about "Savers bank account" but another fact is that he's not going to spend well into the luxury tax year after year. He just doesn't have that kind of dough. See Bobster's comparison of the Warriors to us. You can continue to live in dreamland but that's not reality, dude. But fantasize away!
Well the fact is that I don’t give two shits about Bobby’s accounts. I won’t adjust my expectations of fielding a contender just because Bobby’s cheap ass doesn’t want to spend for it. That’s his problem to manage his fan base or sell the team. I’d root for a different team before I accepted mediocrity.
Um, we haven't won a championship for 53 years. What do you mean you wouldn't accept mediocrity?

Also, nobody here cares about his bank account or how much he spends on the team. We are just saying that there is no way he will spend an extra 50M a year in tax to field a team. I would love it if he would. But he won't. So why expect it when you know 100% it won't happen?

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Mori Chu
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by Mori Chu »

I like John Collins and wouldn't hate an Ayton/Collins centered trade. Would still rather keep Ayton but of the packages being floated around, that's one I like a bit more.

If you acquire Collins, though, don't you need to shop Crowder? He'd be a bit redundant on a team where we have Collins and Cam Johnson. And what would be the plan for starting center? JaVale? FA/trade? I don't want ATL to try to stick us with Clint Capela. (CP3 could make Capela look good for a year, but then he'd be worthless. And he makes too much.)

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Indy
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by Indy »

Yeah you would have to look to move Jae (and other assets). I would look for a guard that can handle the ball and create shots for himself and others first. I think you can find a center for cheaper and use other assets for it.

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specialsauce
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by specialsauce »

Indy wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 2:24 pm
specialsauce wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 1:56 pm
Superbone wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:14 pm
specialsauce wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:03 pm
Superbone wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:59 am


Just the facts, man. I'd love to keep him on a reasonable salary but that's not happening.
The facts are that this team had a higher chance for a championship with Ayton on this roster than Turkoglu, Warrick and Childress. Them is the facts. Finances or no finances. I don’t give a fuck about no Bobby Savers bank account. That’s his problem. I’m not going to get behind going cheap and getting three spare tires in exchange for a pirelli
Very true. Those guys are way past their prime. That indeed is a fact.

And you can say whatever you want about "Savers bank account" but another fact is that he's not going to spend well into the luxury tax year after year. He just doesn't have that kind of dough. See Bobster's comparison of the Warriors to us. You can continue to live in dreamland but that's not reality, dude. But fantasize away!
Well the fact is that I don’t give two shits about Bobby’s accounts. I won’t adjust my expectations of fielding a contender just because Bobby’s cheap ass doesn’t want to spend for it. That’s his problem to manage his fan base or sell the team. I’d root for a different team before I accepted mediocrity.
Um, we haven't won a championship for 53 years. What do you mean you wouldn't accept mediocrity?

Also, nobody here cares about his bank account or how much he spends on the team. We are just saying that there is no way he will spend an extra 50M a year in tax to field a team. I would love it if he would. But he won't. So why expect it when you know 100% it won't happen?
I won’t be okay with pursuing mediocrity. I’ll continue to bitch and moan. Just pay Ayton if the spare parts aren’t going to improve your chances at achieving your goal. At least running this team back we know we will be competitive and if DA plays at his best we will contend again. I’d rather overpay Ayton and have a chance than trade him for the sake of not paying him and have no chance.

Subbing DA for Brogdon and Turner gets us further away from our goal. Subbing DA for Grant gets us further away. If you get Poettl you might as well just trade Booker for cash considerations

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specialsauce
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by specialsauce »

Indy wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 2:58 pm
Yeah you would have to look to move Jae (and other assets). I would look for a guard that can handle the ball and create shots for himself and others first. I think you can find a center for cheaper and use other assets for it.
Bridges a first and Crowder for Lavine.

CP3
Booker
Lavine
Collins
Saric

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SunsRIt
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by SunsRIt »

specialsauce wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 3:03 pm
Indy wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 2:58 pm
Yeah you would have to look to move Jae (and other assets). I would look for a guard that can handle the ball and create shots for himself and others first. I think you can find a center for cheaper and use other assets for it.
Bridges a first and Crowder for Lavine.

CP3
Booker
Lavine
Collins
Saric
To count on anything out of Saric is a mistake. We haven’t seen him on the court since tearing his ACL and have no idea the effects it will have. Also, we missed in the finals last year, but only the way you miss your only other big on the team and probably 10th best player. He is not a starter or major contributor on a championship team.

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Split T
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by Split T »

I think you’d need to plan on Collins playing a lot of Center. He can be a rolling lob threat for CP3 and a pick n pop big for Book and Payne.

I’d probably plan on starting him at the 5, take CP3 out early and bring him back in with a backup 5 like Biyombo or something.

I think you could keep Crowder, but I’d still look to upgrade him. Crowder plus a contract and a 1st for Grant would work.

Paul/Book/Bridges/Grant/Collins

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specialsauce
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by specialsauce »

SunsRIt wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 3:11 pm
specialsauce wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 3:03 pm
Indy wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 2:58 pm
Yeah you would have to look to move Jae (and other assets). I would look for a guard that can handle the ball and create shots for himself and others first. I think you can find a center for cheaper and use other assets for it.
Bridges a first and Crowder for Lavine.

CP3
Booker
Lavine
Collins
Saric
To count on anything out of Saric is a mistake. We haven’t seen him on the court since tearing his ACL and have no idea the effects it will have. Also, we missed in the finals last year, but only the way you miss your only other big on the team and probably 10th best player. He is not a starter or major contributor on a championship team.
I don’t disagree. I just have him slotted there because of all our current options we had last year, he’s the only one remotely resembling a consistent rotation worthy 5 let alone starter.

IMO Biz and Javale are situational bigs on the minimum and you only bring back 1 and sign Frank.

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virtual9mm
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by virtual9mm »

Yes...but Javale is a REALLY AWESOME situational big who is useful both in the regular season and in the playoffs.

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Superbone
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by Superbone »

specialsauce wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 3:01 pm
Indy wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 2:24 pm
specialsauce wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 1:56 pm
Superbone wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:14 pm
specialsauce wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:03 pm

The facts are that this team had a higher chance for a championship with Ayton on this roster than Turkoglu, Warrick and Childress. Them is the facts. Finances or no finances. I don’t give a fuck about no Bobby Savers bank account. That’s his problem. I’m not going to get behind going cheap and getting three spare tires in exchange for a pirelli
Very true. Those guys are way past their prime. That indeed is a fact.

And you can say whatever you want about "Savers bank account" but another fact is that he's not going to spend well into the luxury tax year after year. He just doesn't have that kind of dough. See Bobster's comparison of the Warriors to us. You can continue to live in dreamland but that's not reality, dude. But fantasize away!
Well the fact is that I don’t give two shits about Bobby’s accounts. I won’t adjust my expectations of fielding a contender just because Bobby’s cheap ass doesn’t want to spend for it. That’s his problem to manage his fan base or sell the team. I’d root for a different team before I accepted mediocrity.
Um, we haven't won a championship for 53 years. What do you mean you wouldn't accept mediocrity?

Also, nobody here cares about his bank account or how much he spends on the team. We are just saying that there is no way he will spend an extra 50M a year in tax to field a team. I would love it if he would. But he won't. So why expect it when you know 100% it won't happen?
I won’t be okay with pursuing mediocrity. I’ll continue to bitch and moan. Just pay Ayton if the spare parts aren’t going to improve your chances at achieving your goal. At least running this team back we know we will be competitive and if DA plays at his best we will contend again. I’d rather overpay Ayton and have a chance than trade him for the sake of not paying him and have no chance.

Subbing DA for Brogdon and Turner gets us further away from our goal. Subbing DA for Grant gets us further away. If you get Poettl you might as well just trade Booker for cash considerations
THAT we can agree on. Only move on from Ayton if we're better or even afterward than we were before. We don't have to be huge tax payers but don't skimp either. In other words, financial considerations shouldn't be the reason for moving backward if they are within reason. If it's a cost cutting move that makes us worse, yeah, screw that.
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Flagrant Fowl
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by Flagrant Fowl »

Split T wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:02 pm
I think I’m warming up to the idea of Detroit as an Ayton trade piece. Detroit seems like the place most connected to him and Jerami Grant is the obvious piece returning. Before I said I’d only be in favor if whoever they draft at 5 is coming as well. I still feel that way, but I’m at the point where I’d be very happy with that return. Honestly as I think about it, short of a KD, KAT, or Siakam trade, I think Grant and 5 is about as good as we could get. Assuming Ivey is the pick at 5. We get a 3rd guard who can double as CP3’s successor(which as I think about it, is definitely the most important thing we need looking forward and we need it very soon) and we add a 2nd/3rd option right now in Grant. I’d then look to move Crowder for a 5…haven’t looked into who that would be, but…

CP3/Booker/Bridges/Grant/New 5
Ivey/CamJ/Saric
This is almost exactly the scenario I put out a couple of weeks ago. Thanks for paying attention. 8-)

Since then I've come to accept that Detroit wouldn't put Grant and #5 in a deal for Ayton. It's just too much to give up while also presumably signing Ayton to a max-level contract. At that point they'd be better off calling the Suns bluff and refuse to negotiate such a pricy deal.

It's also well known that Portland wants Jerami Grant and I think there's a good chance they get him with their #7 pick, and we know the Suns are at a disadvantage negotiating Ayton S&T deals due to the timing of the draft and free agency.

If I were Detroit, I'd try to do Eric Bledsoe and #7 for Jerami Grant, and then flip #5, #7 and whatever it took to get OKC's #2 if Paolo Banchero doesn't get picked first by Orlando.
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Split T
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by Split T »

I know you’ve been in on #5 with your eyes on Ivey…I guess I’m just saying I’m coming around.

If Portland will give #7 for Grant, not much we can do about that. Detroit would be crazy to not take that. It would take them out of the Ayton running though as I can’t imagine them throwing him an offer sheet that we’d certainly match and there’s nothing left on that roster at that point to S&T for Ayton.

I don’t think OKC would want to trade down though. Houston would be the better target imo.

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Flagrant Fowl
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by Flagrant Fowl »

There are some pretty serious land mines in the middle of the lottery, so I don't highly value the #7 pick. That could be a significant difference in our perspectives on that Portland/Detroit scenario.

I'm also very suspect of the Pistons willingness to sign a non-superstar max player. I think they'd be more content with still getting high level talent but has the upside of being younger and cheaper.

As it relates to OKC, in what world are they actually interested in doing anything but acquiring assets? Presti keeps piling up picks and prospects with the goal of putting them into a package for a superstar, but I'm not holding my breath on that one. I lean more toward the organization using that excuse to placate a captive fan base when in reality they're perfectly fine taking swings on draft picks, developing them, and eventually flipping them for more prospects.
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Indy
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by Indy »

virtual9mm wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 3:48 pm
Yes...but Javale is a REALLY AWESOME situational big who is useful both in the regular season and in the playoffs.
He was a net negative in the playoffs this year (even before the last 2 blowouts).

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Indy
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by Indy »

specialsauce wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 3:01 pm
Indy wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 2:24 pm
specialsauce wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 1:56 pm
Superbone wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:14 pm
specialsauce wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:03 pm

The facts are that this team had a higher chance for a championship with Ayton on this roster than Turkoglu, Warrick and Childress. Them is the facts. Finances or no finances. I don’t give a fuck about no Bobby Savers bank account. That’s his problem. I’m not going to get behind going cheap and getting three spare tires in exchange for a pirelli
Very true. Those guys are way past their prime. That indeed is a fact.

And you can say whatever you want about "Savers bank account" but another fact is that he's not going to spend well into the luxury tax year after year. He just doesn't have that kind of dough. See Bobster's comparison of the Warriors to us. You can continue to live in dreamland but that's not reality, dude. But fantasize away!
Well the fact is that I don’t give two shits about Bobby’s accounts. I won’t adjust my expectations of fielding a contender just because Bobby’s cheap ass doesn’t want to spend for it. That’s his problem to manage his fan base or sell the team. I’d root for a different team before I accepted mediocrity.
Um, we haven't won a championship for 53 years. What do you mean you wouldn't accept mediocrity?

Also, nobody here cares about his bank account or how much he spends on the team. We are just saying that there is no way he will spend an extra 50M a year in tax to field a team. I would love it if he would. But he won't. So why expect it when you know 100% it won't happen?
I won’t be okay with pursuing mediocrity. I’ll continue to bitch and moan. Just pay Ayton if the spare parts aren’t going to improve your chances at achieving your goal. At least running this team back we know we will be competitive and if DA plays at his best we will contend again. I’d rather overpay Ayton and have a chance than trade him for the sake of not paying him and have no chance.

Subbing DA for Brogdon and Turner gets us further away from our goal. Subbing DA for Grant gets us further away. If you get Poettl you might as well just trade Booker for cash considerations
Of course, we all bitch and moan about not doing enough to win. But you said you would switch teams before accepting mediocrity. If you just meant you will keep bitching about it, I get that.

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Split T
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by Split T »

I can’t imagine OKC is planning to do this forever…they just traded a pick in this draft for a future 1st and have pick 12 this year too. I think they are turning the corner on the asset accumulation process. With SGA and Giddey I think they have a nice duo brewing. I think adding one of the stud bigs at the top of the draft would be more appealing than taking two shots at lesser prospects. Dort is also nice rotation piece.

SGA/Giddey/Dort/Chet then they are positioned to throw down a godfather offer at some point for a superstar and see what happens.

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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by Flagrant Fowl »

Split T wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 5:33 pm
I can’t imagine OKC is planning to do this forever…
Maybe I'm too cynical or been mentally tormented by the Robert Sarver era, but I have serious questions about the ownership's commitment to going for a title. I think they'd much rather keep churning out a profit.
Split T wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 5:33 pm
SGA/Giddey/Dort/Chet then they are positioned to throw down a godfather offer at some point for a superstar and see what happens.
Because we're talking about OKC, I believe it's more difficult for them to get the superstar to agree to a trade there than to accumulate the pieces needed to make a deal. We've seen plenty of examples of perceived superstars just sitting out games until they get traded to a place of their choosing.
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