All Things Ayton

Discussion of the league and of our favorite team.
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Indy
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by Indy »

JeremyG wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:43 am
Indy wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:35 pm
JeremyG wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:50 pm
Oatmeal wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:09 pm
JeremyG wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:53 pm


Nonsense. Ayton was arguably our most valuable player in the postseason (CP3 said that himself at one point). Without him, there is no way we would have gotten to the Finals.
Pointed out his growth in the post season, whats the issue here?
My point was that a big man/center can still have tremendous value in this league, even without being "an outlier like Giannis" or being the team's top scorer.
Name one. He doesn't have the aggression or skill of Giannis. He doesn't have the aggression or shooting of Embiid. He doesn't have the vision and passing of Jokic. There isn't a top big man in the league in the last 10 years that is as limited as Ayton.
Rudy Gobert is making more than the standard max and is more limited offensively than Ayton. The Jazz consider him to be extremely valuable and paid him the money to prove it. Plus Ayton keeps adding to his game and has obvious offensive potential.
I don't think you can find another team in the league that would want to pay Gobert $40M/year.

JeremyG
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by JeremyG »

Indy wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:57 am
You don't say that publicly. It just ruins relationships and hurts his value around the league. You don't think they have told him in private that he is inconsistent?
He wouldn't have to word it in a negative way, he could have just praised his playoff performance and said that they are looking for more of that.

And Sarver didn't have to say one negative thing about Joe Johnson's play to ruin that relationship. What ruins relationships is telling a player they are not worth what the market says they are worth.

As for the rest of the league, they can see his play over the last three years and judge for themselves whether or not he's been inconsistent. And it sounds like the majority of executives are shocked that Phoenix does not consider him a max player.

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ShelC
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by ShelC »

I'm sure a lot of execs were shocked we gave away TJ Warren for nothing and drafted Cam Johnson 11th overall too.

There also may be some validity to not wanting a ton of money on the books after CP's and Books deals are up. Sounded like they wanted to line things up those guys if they could.

JeremyG
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by JeremyG »

ShelC wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:21 am
There also may be some validity to not wanting a ton of money on the books after CP's and Books deals are up.
At the risk of not keeping the championship-contending team together for the next three years until that time? That just proves even more that Sarver is too cheap to try to win a title.

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Indy
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by Indy »

JeremyG wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:16 pm
ShelC wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:21 am
There also may be some validity to not wanting a ton of money on the books after CP's and Books deals are up.
At the risk of not keeping the championship-contending team together for the next three years until that time? That just proves even more that Sarver is too cheap to try to win a title.
He may very well be. But you seem to keep discounting the fact that James Jones said he didn't think Ayton was worth the contract.

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Bucktastic365
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by Bucktastic365 »

McGee is outperforming Ayton FOR WHAT WE NEED IN OUR SYSTEM.

Ayton on his own is a beast; if a team ran the offense thru him he'd be worthy of the max, but we are a outside team and I am more than happy that they didn't allocate money to Ayton.
We can get comparable value for a fraction of the max. Just my opinion

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pickle
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by pickle »

As much as I think we need to show some objectivity towards Sarver and Jones in terms of not giving Ayton the max, let's also not go too far the other direction... I love Holmes and was super pissed that we let him go and picked up Kaminsky while he signed a 2 year 10 mil offer with the Kings... but we would not have gotten to the finals with him at the helm. He's a great energy player and picks up scoring off of missed shots and pure set up opportunities, but nobody will send a double team at him when he's isolated on the low block with his back to the basket. There's also the issue of defensive reputation. When there are 50/50 calls, Ayton has the potential with all that defensive anchor reputation to eventually get the favorable call, while Holmes never will. For these two factors alone Ayton is worth 3 times as much as Holmes.

And no, I really don't think McGee fits better with our system. He's a great backup big man and can play up to maybe 20 mpg, but there's a reason he's around that watermark wherever he played. In the finals last year our offense became quite predictable, CP3 and Booker taking turns to make something happen. I really think we need a consistent 3rd point of attack, someone who can create offense by himself who isn't a liability on the other end of the court. I know that Monty has been pushing Mikal to do this, but I really think Ayton is the better solution. I'd love to see him improve as a post player, while adding a sprinkle of 3 point shooting in his game to further improve the driving lanes.

It's really unfortunate that the Suns didn't extend Ayton... any amount of arguing won't change that fact. Let's not make Ayton out to be the next Shaq or the next Olowokandi just to make a point though...

JeremyG
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by JeremyG »

Indy wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:24 pm
JeremyG wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:16 pm
ShelC wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:21 am
There also may be some validity to not wanting a ton of money on the books after CP's and Books deals are up.
At the risk of not keeping the championship-contending team together for the next three years until that time? That just proves even more that Sarver is too cheap to try to win a title.
He may very well be. But you seem to keep discounting the fact that James Jones said he didn't think Ayton was worth the contract.
I haven't seen anywhere that Jones said that. He said they "didn't want to" give him the contract and that they "preferred not to."

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Indy
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by Indy »

JeremyG wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:21 pm
Indy wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:24 pm
JeremyG wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:16 pm
ShelC wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:21 am
There also may be some validity to not wanting a ton of money on the books after CP's and Books deals are up.
At the risk of not keeping the championship-contending team together for the next three years until that time? That just proves even more that Sarver is too cheap to try to win a title.
He may very well be. But you seem to keep discounting the fact that James Jones said he didn't think Ayton was worth the contract.
I haven't seen anywhere that Jones said that. He said they "didn't want to" give him the contract and that they "preferred not to."
That is a big leap of logic on your end. You are saying that when Jones said they didn't want to give him the max, and preferred not to give him the max, it wasn't because they didn't think he was worth it?

So Jones thinks he was worth it, but he preferred not to do it anyway.

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Superbone
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by Superbone »

pickle wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:20 pm
It's really unfortunate that the Suns didn't extend Ayton... any amount of arguing won't change that fact. Let's not make Ayton out to be the next Shaq or the next Olowokandi just to make a point though...
I think we can all agree on the bolded part. It's not our money. I'd much rather have a happy Ayton rather than a disgruntled one. Our only choice is to trust Jones's team building skills and hope that Sarver isn't making it harder behind the scenes.
"It should burn. It'll probably burn forever. But last season is done." - James Jones

"I want to be who I think I am." - Frank Kaminsky

JeremyG
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by JeremyG »

Indy wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:32 pm
JeremyG wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:21 pm
Indy wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:24 pm
JeremyG wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:16 pm
ShelC wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:21 am
There also may be some validity to not wanting a ton of money on the books after CP's and Books deals are up.
At the risk of not keeping the championship-contending team together for the next three years until that time? That just proves even more that Sarver is too cheap to try to win a title.
He may very well be. But you seem to keep discounting the fact that James Jones said he didn't think Ayton was worth the contract.
I haven't seen anywhere that Jones said that. He said they "didn't want to" give him the contract and that they "preferred not to."
That is a big leap of logic on your end. You are saying that when Jones said they didn't want to give him the max, and preferred not to give him the max, it wasn't because they didn't think he was worth it?

So Jones thinks he was worth it, but he preferred not to do it anyway.
Isn't that what you just said above? That they preferred not to have a ton of money on the books after CP3 and Booker's contracts are up? Jones implied they were willing to give DA a 3 or 4 year max.

And yes, I certainly would think it's easy to believe that Sarver would prefer not to give the max to someone who is worth it, if he already is paying other huge contracts.

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Indy
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by Indy »

Right. Meaning he isn't worth that max contract in their estimation.

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Shabazz
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by Shabazz »

One thing I've been thinking is that Jones and Monty have a view into Ayton's work ethic that we don't. We see the progress on the defensive end, but they see how early he shows up to practice, how late he stays and how much work he actually puts in during the offseason. He was out of shape coming into the bubble, out of shape coming into last season and towards the end of last season Monty basically said Ayton becoming the worker he needed to was a recent development. The defensive improvement (which has been great) is something that comes with reps in settings like games and practice (when he has to show up). The offensive improvement (has he improved anything offensively other than shot selection since his rookie year?) can often come in individual settings (when showing up is optional).

Hopefully, if this is a work-ethic thing, then Monty and James have given him a roadmap of what they need to see from him in order to get the max offer next summer.
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jonh
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by jonh »

Superbone wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:34 pm
pickle wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:20 pm
It's really unfortunate that the Suns didn't extend Ayton... any amount of arguing won't change that fact. Let's not make Ayton out to be the next Shaq or the next Olowokandi just to make a point though...
I think we can all agree on the bolded part. It's not our money. I'd much rather have a happy Ayton rather than a disgruntled one. Our only choice is to trust Jones's team building skills and hope that Sarver isn't making it harder behind the scenes.
If you don’t enjoy arguing about Ayton being deserving of the max, You might want to brace yourself, because this conversation will be revisited the entire rest of the season. Every great Ayton game, every terrible Ayton game, and every mediocre Ayton game will include at least a comment on his value to the team.

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bajanguy008
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by bajanguy008 »

jonh wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 5:47 am
Superbone wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:34 pm
pickle wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:20 pm
It's really unfortunate that the Suns didn't extend Ayton... any amount of arguing won't change that fact. Let's not make Ayton out to be the next Shaq or the next Olowokandi just to make a point though...
I think we can all agree on the bolded part. It's not our money. I'd much rather have a happy Ayton rather than a disgruntled one. Our only choice is to trust Jones's team building skills and hope that Sarver isn't making it harder behind the scenes.
If you don’t enjoy arguing about Ayton being deserving of the max, You might want to brace yourself, because this conversation will be revisited the entire rest of the season. Every great Ayton game, every terrible Ayton game, and every mediocre Ayton game will include at least a comment on his value to the team.
and I pray for the sanity of myself along with everyone else on here sigh lol
SUNS Fan from the Land of Sun, Sea and Sand ;)

JeremyG
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by JeremyG »

Maybe our new owner will actually want to keep Ayton on a 5-year max deal! I actually have hope again that we could retain him.

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Aztec Sunsfan
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by Aztec Sunsfan »

Jerry Colangelo: Wait on contract part of Suns C Deandre Ayton’s growth

https://arizonasports.com/story/286147 ... ns-growth/

“That’s part of the business today. The money is so big, (the Suns) have to be 100% sure they want to move forward. I think probably it’s all going to work out at some point and it’ll be part of Deandre Ayton’s growth in terms of a business man to understand this is how the world really plays.”

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ShelC
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by ShelC »

Speaking of "growth", can we honestly say DA's really made any noticeable improvements offensively? His defense has definitely gotten better since he's been in the league, but I also chalk some of that up to coaching. But where's the improved post game? Where's the dribble drive faceup game? He's basically the same player on offense we've always seen. I wouldn't even care if he shot those fadeaways or FT line jumpers if he were automatic like Duncan or Ewing or KG - but he isn't. Cam and Mikal have both improved their ballhandling and dribble drive games, Payne spoke about how he needed to get craftier finishing his layups because teams figured out his lefty scoop last season. I think those are the things Monty and Jones are taking into account. If DA seemingly isn't putting the work in to improve his skills ahead of his big contract, what happens when he gets the money?

And I'm not trashing DA either, just pointing out what I'm seeing. I have no problem with him as he is because he's been good enough as a defender and rebounder. But good enough shouldn't get you a max deal.

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Mori Chu
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by Mori Chu »

Speaking of "growth", can we honestly say DA's really made any noticeable improvements offensively?
I think he's gotten better at rolling to the basket and catching entry passes and finishing at the rim. And he's got a bit better patience when right next to the basket, often able to use a series of pivots and fakes to get his defender up in the air so that he can then lay it in. And he's worked a bit on his outside shooting, though I would not say it is consistent yet.

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ShelC
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by ShelC »

I feel like the headfakes/pivots often get him in trouble, especially when getting stripped. His awareness has gotten a little better, but I still don't see any real advanced post moves or footwork. And rolling to the rim/catching entry passes...I'm wondering if that's having better guard play get him the ball in easy spots where all he has to do is just lay it in/dunk it?

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