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Re: All Things Ayton
Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2022 7:26 pm
by The Bobster
Indy wrote: ↑Sun Jun 19, 2022 6:32 pm
The Bobster wrote: ↑Sun Jun 19, 2022 12:39 pm
Ayton vs Pels - 35.0 Min, 20.5 Pts, 9.8 Reb, 2.5 Ast, 1.2 Blk, 70.0 FG%, 75.0 FT%
Ayton vs Mavs - 26.8 Min, 15.7 Pts, 8.1 Reb, 1.0 Ast, 0.4 Blk, 58.3 FG%, 57.1 FT%
Ayton Total - 30.5 Min, 17.9 Pts, 8.9 Reb, 1.7 Ast, 0.8 Blk, 64.0 FT%, 63.6 FT%
So he basically scored and rebounded at the same rate, he just didn't have the gaudy shooting %.
The real question is why was he playing 25% fewer minutes in the Dallas series? Some will say it is because Monty hates him and didn't want him to succeed. Others will say because he wasn't bringing the energy when he was in the game so you have to sit him more.
In part because of foul trouble in game one, and the game seven fiasco.
In part because..... who knows?
Re: All Things Ayton
Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2022 10:23 pm
by Indy
The Bobster wrote: ↑Sun Jun 19, 2022 7:26 pm
Indy wrote: ↑Sun Jun 19, 2022 6:32 pm
The Bobster wrote: ↑Sun Jun 19, 2022 12:39 pm
Ayton vs Pels - 35.0 Min, 20.5 Pts, 9.8 Reb, 2.5 Ast, 1.2 Blk, 70.0 FG%, 75.0 FT%
Ayton vs Mavs - 26.8 Min, 15.7 Pts, 8.1 Reb, 1.0 Ast, 0.4 Blk, 58.3 FG%, 57.1 FT%
Ayton Total - 30.5 Min, 17.9 Pts, 8.9 Reb, 1.7 Ast, 0.8 Blk, 64.0 FT%, 63.6 FT%
So he basically scored and rebounded at the same rate, he just didn't have the gaudy shooting %.
The real question is why was he playing 25% fewer minutes in the Dallas series? Some will say it is because Monty hates him and didn't want him to succeed. Others will say because he wasn't bringing the energy when he was in the game so you have to sit him more.
In part because of foul trouble in game one, and the game seven fiasco.
In part because..... who knows?
I think you mean game 2 when he played <20 minutes. He only had 1 foul all game in Game 1 and played over 30 minutes. It was a weird series for him, with over 30mpg in 4 games and under 20 minutes per game the other 3--trading blow outs with Dallas is what really led to that. So maybe that was the "because."
Book's lowest game during that series was just over 35 minutes, while even Mikal had 4 games under 33 minutes. Paul had several games below his average minutes, too. Jae had the least with only 2 games over 30 minutes, but never had a game below 26.
I guess I should look to see how common that was, but it does seem weird to see one starter that had a clear advantage physically over everyone on the other team, and see him get/be able to get so few minutes from game to game.
Re: All Things Ayton
Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:32 am
by JeremyG
Indy wrote: ↑Sun Jun 19, 2022 10:23 pm
The Bobster wrote: ↑Sun Jun 19, 2022 7:26 pm
Indy wrote: ↑Sun Jun 19, 2022 6:32 pm
The Bobster wrote: ↑Sun Jun 19, 2022 12:39 pm
Ayton vs Pels - 35.0 Min, 20.5 Pts, 9.8 Reb, 2.5 Ast, 1.2 Blk, 70.0 FG%, 75.0 FT%
Ayton vs Mavs - 26.8 Min, 15.7 Pts, 8.1 Reb, 1.0 Ast, 0.4 Blk, 58.3 FG%, 57.1 FT%
Ayton Total - 30.5 Min, 17.9 Pts, 8.9 Reb, 1.7 Ast, 0.8 Blk, 64.0 FT%, 63.6 FT%
So he basically scored and rebounded at the same rate, he just didn't have the gaudy shooting %.
The real question is why was he playing 25% fewer minutes in the Dallas series? Some will say it is because Monty hates him and didn't want him to succeed. Others will say because he wasn't bringing the energy when he was in the game so you have to sit him more.
In part because of foul trouble in game one, and the game seven fiasco.
In part because..... who knows?
I think you mean game 2 when he played <20 minutes. He only had 1 foul all game in Game 1 and played over 30 minutes. It was a weird series for him, with over 30mpg in 4 games and under 20 minutes per game the other 3--trading blow outs with Dallas is what really led to that. So maybe that was the "because."
Book's lowest game during that series was just over 35 minutes, while even Mikal had 4 games under 33 minutes. Paul had several games below his average minutes, too. Jae had the least with only 2 games over 30 minutes, but never had a game below 26.
I guess I should look to see how common that was, but it does seem weird to see one starter that had a clear advantage physically over everyone on the other team, and see him get/be able to get so few minutes from game to game.
Part of it was Monty. He was foolishly trying to match the Mavs' small lineup some of the time instead of using DA. If I remember right, he even had Craig at center sometimes?
Re: All Things Ayton
Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:41 am
by TOO
That's because Ayton wasn't giving him a reason to stay in, if he were to say get the ball turn and dunk on people, he'd get to stay in. Instead, he got pushed around and sealed off my smaller players. This isn't new.
Re: All Things Ayton
Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:14 am
by SunsRIt
TOO wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:41 am
That's because Ayton wasn't giving him a reason to stay in, if he were to say get the ball turn and dunk on people, he'd get to stay in. Instead, he got pushed around and sealed off my smaller players. This isn't new.
You make it seem like Ayton is the second coming of Michael Olawakandi. Just stop. He’s a quality, finesse basketball player. If he was as bad as you think he he wouldn’t be able to make a G-League roster. So over it.
Re: All Things Ayton
Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:17 am
by Split T
You have to remember we’re talking about him in the context of signing him to a max contract. No one thinks he’s a g league player, we just don’t think he’s a max contract player. Don’t take context out of the discussion.
Re: All Things Ayton
Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:21 am
by TOO
SunsRIt wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:14 am
TOO wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:41 am
That's because Ayton wasn't giving him a reason to stay in, if he were to say get the ball turn and dunk on people, he'd get to stay in. Instead, he got pushed around and sealed off my smaller players. This isn't new.
You make it seem like Ayton is the second coming of Michael Olawakandi. Just stop. He’s a quality, finesse basketball player. If he was as bad as you think he he wouldn’t be able to make a G-League roster. So over it.
Just stating facts bud. Sorry it doesn't fit your narrative.
Re: All Things Ayton
Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:22 am
by Indy
JeremyG wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:32 am
Indy wrote: ↑Sun Jun 19, 2022 10:23 pm
The Bobster wrote: ↑Sun Jun 19, 2022 7:26 pm
Indy wrote: ↑Sun Jun 19, 2022 6:32 pm
The Bobster wrote: ↑Sun Jun 19, 2022 12:39 pm
Ayton vs Pels - 35.0 Min, 20.5 Pts, 9.8 Reb, 2.5 Ast, 1.2 Blk, 70.0 FG%, 75.0 FT%
Ayton vs Mavs - 26.8 Min, 15.7 Pts, 8.1 Reb, 1.0 Ast, 0.4 Blk, 58.3 FG%, 57.1 FT%
Ayton Total - 30.5 Min, 17.9 Pts, 8.9 Reb, 1.7 Ast, 0.8 Blk, 64.0 FT%, 63.6 FT%
So he basically scored and rebounded at the same rate, he just didn't have the gaudy shooting %.
The real question is why was he playing 25% fewer minutes in the Dallas series? Some will say it is because Monty hates him and didn't want him to succeed. Others will say because he wasn't bringing the energy when he was in the game so you have to sit him more.
In part because of foul trouble in game one, and the game seven fiasco.
In part because..... who knows?
I think you mean game 2 when he played <20 minutes. He only had 1 foul all game in Game 1 and played over 30 minutes. It was a weird series for him, with over 30mpg in 4 games and under 20 minutes per game the other 3--trading blow outs with Dallas is what really led to that. So maybe that was the "because."
Book's lowest game during that series was just over 35 minutes, while even Mikal had 4 games under 33 minutes. Paul had several games below his average minutes, too. Jae had the least with only 2 games over 30 minutes, but never had a game below 26.
I guess I should look to see how common that was, but it does seem weird to see one starter that had a clear advantage physically over everyone on the other team, and see him get/be able to get so few minutes from game to game.
Part of it was Monty. He was foolishly trying to match the Mavs' small lineup some of the time instead of using DA. If I remember right, he even had Craig at center sometimes?
We all know why he played so little in Game 7...
The only other outliers were Game 2 (18.5 minutes) and Game 5 (22.25 minutes). The other games he played over 30 minutes.
Game 2 he was in foul trouble all game. He had <14 minutes in the entire first half and already had 3 fouls. Bizzy took nearly all his minutes in the 2nd half and was a +13 before the end of the game when we were just waiting it out.
Game 5 was an even bigger blow out and Ayton still got his 20 points, but just didn't need him in the 2nd half much. That was the game Torrey played the 5 to finish the game.
Re: All Things Ayton
Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:25 am
by Indy
SunsRIt wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:14 am
TOO wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:41 am
That's because Ayton wasn't giving him a reason to stay in, if he were to say get the ball turn and dunk on people, he'd get to stay in. Instead, he got pushed around and sealed off my smaller players. This isn't new.
You make it seem like Ayton is the second coming of Michael Olawakandi. Just stop. He’s a quality, finesse basketball player. If he was as bad as you think he he wouldn’t be able to make a G-League roster. So over it.
No one is saying he sucks. Almost everyone here would agree he is a top 60 player, and top 10 at his position. We are just disagreeing on how much of the team's future should be on his shoulders.
Re: All Things Ayton
Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:49 am
by TOO
Indy wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:25 am
SunsRIt wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:14 am
TOO wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:41 am
That's because Ayton wasn't giving him a reason to stay in, if he were to say get the ball turn and dunk on people, he'd get to stay in. Instead, he got pushed around and sealed off my smaller players. This isn't new.
You make it seem like Ayton is the second coming of Michael Olawakandi. Just stop. He’s a quality, finesse basketball player. If he was as bad as you think he he wouldn’t be able to make a G-League roster. So over it.
No one is saying he sucks. Almost everyone here would agree he is a top 60 player, and top 10 at his position. We are just disagreeing on how much of the team's future should be on his shoulders.
I'd go farther and say he's a top 5 C, but he's just not max guy, most C aren't worth a max because of the way the game is played now. The 2 max guys can also stretch the floor and one of them is basically a 7ft PG.
Re: All Things Ayton
Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:59 am
by Superbone
TOO wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:49 am
Indy wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:25 am
SunsRIt wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:14 am
TOO wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:41 am
That's because Ayton wasn't giving him a reason to stay in, if he were to say get the ball turn and dunk on people, he'd get to stay in. Instead, he got pushed around and sealed off my smaller players. This isn't new.
You make it seem like Ayton is the second coming of Michael Olawakandi. Just stop. He’s a quality, finesse basketball player. If he was as bad as you think he he wouldn’t be able to make a G-League roster. So over it.
No one is saying he sucks. Almost everyone here would agree he is a top 60 player, and top 10 at his position. We are just disagreeing on how much of the team's future should be on his shoulders.
I'd go farther and say he's a top 5 C, but he's just not max guy, most C aren't worth a max because of the way the game is played now. The 2 max guys can also stretch the floor and one of them is basically a 7ft PG.
Just the facts, man. I'd love to keep him on a reasonable salary but that's not happening.
Re: All Things Ayton
Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:02 pm
by Split T
I think I’m warming up to the idea of Detroit as an Ayton trade piece. Detroit seems like the place most connected to him and Jerami Grant is the obvious piece returning. Before I said I’d only be in favor if whoever they draft at 5 is coming as well. I still feel that way, but I’m at the point where I’d be very happy with that return. Honestly as I think about it, short of a KD, KAT, or Siakam trade, I think Grant and 5 is about as good as we could get. Assuming Ivey is the pick at 5. We get a 3rd guard who can double as CP3’s successor(which as I think about it, is definitely the most important thing we need looking forward and we need it very soon) and we add a 2nd/3rd option right now in Grant. I’d then look to move Crowder for a 5…haven’t looked into who that would be, but…
CP3/Booker/Bridges/Grant/New 5
Ivey/CamJ/Saric
You also could have some sort of combination of Payne/Shamet/Craig/Wainright/Biyombo off the bench too or move them around.
John Collins seems to be the other guy most connected to an Ayton trade and I like that too. He’s young and would factor in to the future. He’s also both a lob threat and a pick n pop threat, so he could play with any of our guards. I do worry about position a bit with him. Does he play the 5 or does he play the 4? Probably a bit of both, but I’m mostly thinking what his position would be in our go to lineups.
Re: All Things Ayton
Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:03 pm
by specialsauce
Superbone wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:59 am
TOO wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:49 am
Indy wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:25 am
SunsRIt wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:14 am
TOO wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:41 am
That's because Ayton wasn't giving him a reason to stay in, if he were to say get the ball turn and dunk on people, he'd get to stay in. Instead, he got pushed around and sealed off my smaller players. This isn't new.
You make it seem like Ayton is the second coming of Michael Olawakandi. Just stop. He’s a quality, finesse basketball player. If he was as bad as you think he he wouldn’t be able to make a G-League roster. So over it.
No one is saying he sucks. Almost everyone here would agree he is a top 60 player, and top 10 at his position. We are just disagreeing on how much of the team's future should be on his shoulders.
I'd go farther and say he's a top 5 C, but he's just not max guy, most C aren't worth a max because of the way the game is played now. The 2 max guys can also stretch the floor and one of them is basically a 7ft PG.
Just the facts, man. I'd love to keep him on a reasonable salary but that's not happening.
The facts are that this team had a higher chance for a championship with Ayton on this roster than Turkoglu, Warrick and Childress. Them is the facts. Finances or no finances. I don’t give a fuck about no Bobby Savers bank account. That’s his problem. I’m not going to get behind going cheap and getting three spare tires in exchange for a pirelli
Re: All Things Ayton
Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:06 pm
by specialsauce
I could get behind a Collins swap. Or a swap with Detroit involving Grant and 5 assuming we can then flip the 5 with Cam J, Crowder and Shamet to Toronto for Siakam or to the Bulls for a sign and trade for Lavine.
Re: All Things Ayton
Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:08 pm
by Split T
specialsauce wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:06 pm
I could get behind a Collins swap. Or a swap with Detroit involving Grant and 5 assuming we can then flip the 5 with Cam J, Crowder and Shamet to Toronto for Siakam or to the Bulls for a sign and trade for Lavine.
That would work for me too
Re: All Things Ayton
Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:14 pm
by Superbone
specialsauce wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:03 pm
Superbone wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:59 am
TOO wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:49 am
Indy wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:25 am
SunsRIt wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:14 am
You make it seem like Ayton is the second coming of Michael Olawakandi. Just stop. He’s a quality, finesse basketball player. If he was as bad as you think he he wouldn’t be able to make a G-League roster. So over it.
No one is saying he sucks. Almost everyone here would agree he is a top 60 player, and top 10 at his position. We are just disagreeing on how much of the team's future should be on his shoulders.
I'd go farther and say he's a top 5 C, but he's just not max guy, most C aren't worth a max because of the way the game is played now. The 2 max guys can also stretch the floor and one of them is basically a 7ft PG.
Just the facts, man. I'd love to keep him on a reasonable salary but that's not happening.
The facts are that this team had a higher chance for a championship with Ayton on this roster than
Turkoglu, Warrick and Childress. Them is the facts. Finances or no finances. I don’t give a fuck about no Bobby Savers bank account. That’s his problem. I’m not going to get behind going cheap and getting three spare tires in exchange for a pirelli
Very true. Those guys are way past their prime. That indeed is a fact.
And you can say whatever you want about "Savers bank account" but another fact is that he's not going to spend well into the luxury tax year after year. He just doesn't have that kind of dough. See Bobster's comparison of the Warriors to us. You can continue to live in dreamland but that's not reality, dude. But fantasize away!
Re: All Things Ayton
Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:16 pm
by Shabazz
Split T wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:02 pm
I think I’m warming up to the idea of Detroit as an Ayton trade piece. Detroit seems like the place most connected to him and Jerami Grant is the obvious piece returning. Before I said I’d only be in favor if whoever they draft at 5 is coming as well. I still feel that way, but I’m at the point where I’d be very happy with that return. Honestly as I think about it, short of a KD, KAT, or Siakam trade, I think Grant and 5 is about as good as we could get. Assuming Ivey is the pick at 5. We get a 3rd guard who can double as CP3’s successor(which as I think about it, is definitely the most important thing we need looking forward and we need it very soon) and we add a 2nd/3rd option right now in Grant. I’d then look to move Crowder for a 5…haven’t looked into who that would be, but…
CP3/Booker/Bridges/Grant/New 5
Ivey/CamJ/Saric
You also could have some sort of combination of Payne/Shamet/Craig/Wainright/Biyombo off the bench too or move them around.
John Collins seems to be the other guy most connected to an Ayton trade and I like that too. He’s young and would factor in to the future. He’s also both a lob threat and a pick n pop threat, so he could play with any of our guards. I do worry about position a bit with him. Does he play the 5 or does he play the 4? Probably a bit of both, but I’m mostly thinking what his position would be in our go to lineups.
I think more likely the return doesn't include the 5, which is why I'm not interested.
Re: All Things Ayton
Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:50 pm
by JeremyG
Split T wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:02 pm
I think I’m warming up to the idea of Detroit as an Ayton trade piece. Detroit seems like the place most connected to him and Jerami Grant is the obvious piece returning. Before I said I’d only be in favor if whoever they draft at 5 is coming as well. I still feel that way, but I’m at the point where I’d be very happy with that return. Honestly as I think about it, short of a KD, KAT, or Siakam trade, I think Grant and 5 is about as good as we could get. Assuming Ivey is the pick at 5. We get a 3rd guard who can double as CP3’s successor(which as I think about it, is definitely the most important thing we need looking forward and we need it very soon) and we add a 2nd/3rd option right now in Grant. I’d then look to move Crowder for a 5…haven’t looked into who that would be, but…
CP3/Booker/Bridges/Grant/New 5
Ivey/CamJ/Saric
You also could have some sort of combination of Payne/Shamet/Craig/Wainright/Biyombo off the bench too or move them around.
John Collins seems to be the other guy most connected to an Ayton trade and I like that too. He’s young and would factor in to the future. He’s also both a lob threat and a pick n pop threat, so he could play with any of our guards. I do worry about position a bit with him. Does he play the 5 or does he play the 4? Probably a bit of both, but I’m mostly thinking what his position would be in our go to lineups.
I thought you all said that Ayton's 81.2 Assisted FGM% was unacceptable...but Collins' 82.9% is fine?
Re: All Things Ayton
Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:51 pm
by Split T
Shabazz wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:16 pm
Split T wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:02 pm
I think I’m warming up to the idea of Detroit as an Ayton trade piece. Detroit seems like the place most connected to him and Jerami Grant is the obvious piece returning. Before I said I’d only be in favor if whoever they draft at 5 is coming as well. I still feel that way, but I’m at the point where I’d be very happy with that return. Honestly as I think about it, short of a KD, KAT, or Siakam trade, I think Grant and 5 is about as good as we could get. Assuming Ivey is the pick at 5. We get a 3rd guard who can double as CP3’s successor(which as I think about it, is definitely the most important thing we need looking forward and we need it very soon) and we add a 2nd/3rd option right now in Grant. I’d then look to move Crowder for a 5…haven’t looked into who that would be, but…
CP3/Booker/Bridges/Grant/New 5
Ivey/CamJ/Saric
You also could have some sort of combination of Payne/Shamet/Craig/Wainright/Biyombo off the bench too or move them around.
John Collins seems to be the other guy most connected to an Ayton trade and I like that too. He’s young and would factor in to the future. He’s also both a lob threat and a pick n pop threat, so he could play with any of our guards. I do worry about position a bit with him. Does he play the 5 or does he play the 4? Probably a bit of both, but I’m mostly thinking what his position would be in our go to lineups.
I think more likely the return doesn't include the 5, which is why I'm not interested.
Oh for sure…that’s much less interesting and I’d definitely prefer Collins at that point.
Re: All Things Ayton
Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:52 pm
by Indy
JeremyG wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:50 pm
Split T wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:02 pm
I think I’m warming up to the idea of Detroit as an Ayton trade piece. Detroit seems like the place most connected to him and Jerami Grant is the obvious piece returning. Before I said I’d only be in favor if whoever they draft at 5 is coming as well. I still feel that way, but I’m at the point where I’d be very happy with that return. Honestly as I think about it, short of a KD, KAT, or Siakam trade, I think Grant and 5 is about as good as we could get. Assuming Ivey is the pick at 5. We get a 3rd guard who can double as CP3’s successor(which as I think about it, is definitely the most important thing we need looking forward and we need it very soon) and we add a 2nd/3rd option right now in Grant. I’d then look to move Crowder for a 5…haven’t looked into who that would be, but…
CP3/Booker/Bridges/Grant/New 5
Ivey/CamJ/Saric
You also could have some sort of combination of Payne/Shamet/Craig/Wainright/Biyombo off the bench too or move them around.
John Collins seems to be the other guy most connected to an Ayton trade and I like that too. He’s young and would factor in to the future. He’s also both a lob threat and a pick n pop threat, so he could play with any of our guards. I do worry about position a bit with him. Does he play the 5 or does he play the 4? Probably a bit of both, but I’m mostly thinking what his position would be in our go to lineups.
I thought you all said that Ayton's 81.2 Assisted FGM% was unacceptable...but Collins' 82.9% is fine?
He makes up for it by taking a lot of 3s and hitting them at a good percentage, and taking a lot more shots at the rim than Ayton.