Book of Igor

Discussion of the league and of our favorite team.
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virtual9mm
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Re: Book of Igor

Post by virtual9mm »

We <3 you Mori regardless!

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O_Gardino
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Re: Book of Igor

Post by O_Gardino »

Marty's not wrong, though. If Bev were clearly better than their rookies or Avery Bradley, he wouldn't be on the trading block.
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Split T
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Re: Book of Igor

Post by Split T »

He's just more expendable. He's on an expiring contract and is coming off knee surgery. Plus he's 30. I also don't think LA is all that concerned about being good this year.

I just don't subscribe to the idea that because LA is willing to trade him means he's not worth trading for. There's plenty of good reasons LA would want to trade him that aren't because he sucks now.

Still, I'm not giving up a 1st for him. If LA won't take salary and a 2nd, I'd just move on.

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Mori Chu
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Re: Book of Igor

Post by Mori Chu »

Guys, I appreciate the slack you're giving me for having a child. But I don't think that should be used to dismiss me out of hand when I offer a basketball take you happen to disagree with.

I said the Clips need a good PG, and that Beverley is older and has multiple leg injuries, and that if he were so great, they probably wouldn't be so eager to give him away. I don't think that is a crazy take. I didn't say they have zero PGs on the roster. I know that they have Teodosic and that they drafted SGA. But SGA is a rookie, and Teodosic has his own flaws. If Beverley were a great PG they would keep him and start him. They might not have drafted SGA if Beverley had worked better for them, either. My point is that they still as recently as this summer have viewed PG as one of their needs and don't think that Beverley is adequately addressing that need. They brought him in to start and be a veteran leader on their roster, and now they're essentially eager to get rid of him. I don't think that speaks well of the guy and his current state as a player. If he were still able to contribute at a high level, they wouldn't be behaving as they are. I think he's probably not the same player any more.

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O_Gardino
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Re: Book of Igor

Post by O_Gardino »

Split T wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:14 am
He's just more expendable. He's on an expiring contract and is coming off knee surgery. Plus he's 30. I also don't think LA is all that concerned about being good this year.

I just don't subscribe to the idea that because LA is willing to trade him means he's not worth trading for. There's plenty of good reasons LA would want to trade him that aren't because he sucks now.

Still, I'm not giving up a 1st for him. If LA won't take salary and a 2nd, I'd just move on.
That's where I am. I think it would be nice to have another grown up on the roster, even though I don't expect Patty Bevs to be a top 20 pg this season. But because I think he's a borderline starter now, I don't want to give up much for him.
The league needs heroes, villains... and clowns. -- Aztec Sunsfan

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ShelC
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Re: Book of Igor

Post by ShelC »

Like Split said, they have a bunch of guards they need to make room for. It's probably best to wait on the Clips. Let them showcase Beverly so we can know he's healthy and maybe there will be a logjam where <gasp> we'll be the ones with leverage if the Clips get desperate to free up minutes between LouWill, Bradley, SGA, and Teodosic.

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O_Gardino
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Re: Book of Igor

Post by O_Gardino »

You know, the advanced stats for PB are ... interesting.

I've always thought that advanced stats can give interesting insights when you have the proper context, but that defense stats are far less useful than offense stats. So I look, but I take my salt shaker with me.

Now, Beverly has always had a reputation as a bulldogish relentless defender whose intensity can change a game. His advanced defense stats for his entire career are entirely mediocre. For a few seasons, his offensive advanced stats are much better than his defense stats.

Anyone have a theory on why that is? Is he a decent defender, but not nearly as effective as his reputation? Or are the advanced stats wrong, and he has been the sole good defender on a Rockets team that brought down his overall advanced stats?
The league needs heroes, villains... and clowns. -- Aztec Sunsfan

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specialsauce
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Re: Book of Igor

Post by specialsauce »

Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:28 am
Guys, I appreciate the slack you're giving me for having a child. But I don't think that should be used to dismiss me out of hand when I offer a basketball take you happen to disagree with.

I said the Clips need a good PG, and that Beverley is older and has multiple leg injuries, and that if he were so great, they probably wouldn't be so eager to give him away. I don't think that is a crazy take. I didn't say they have zero PGs on the roster. I know that they have Teodosic and that they drafted SGA. But SGA is a rookie, and Teodosic has his own flaws. If Beverley were a great PG they would keep him and start him. They might not have drafted SGA if Beverley had worked better for them, either. My point is that they still as recently as this summer have viewed PG as one of their needs and don't think that Beverley is adequately addressing that need. They brought him in to start and be a veteran leader on their roster, and now they're essentially eager to get rid of him. I don't think that speaks well of the guy and his current state as a player. If he were still able to contribute at a high level, they wouldn't be behaving as they are. I think he's probably not the same player any more.
Except now they’ve gone much younger with their roster and are going forward with a rebuild. And you must not have watched SGA in summer league. He looked good.

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Superbone
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Re: Book of Igor

Post by Superbone »

Marty, I don't think the Clippers are looking for another point guard. I think that's where some of the confusion lays.
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Mori Chu
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Re: Book of Igor

Post by Mori Chu »

That's fair. I think I'm projecting my own biases about what I want in point guards onto their roster in ways that are not consistent with what they want to do as a franchise. I look at guys like Bradley and Lou Williams and think, "Those guys are not PGs at all; they don't run an offense. They will get 0 minutes at the PG spot." But they probably will play Lou Williams there some. And I am not a huge Teodosic fan, but he played great for them last year. So really, along with SGA, they have a glut of guards and little need for Beverley. I saw it as a bunch of flawed pieces that didn't amount to much, but My previous post underrated some of their guys, and they still need to sort out their minutes and rotations. Beverley doesn't really fit in with the other pieces.

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Split T
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Re: Book of Igor

Post by Split T »

I think it's also important to realize that we're not getting Beverley to be a game changer for us. At best he'll play tough D, hit open 3's and provide vet leadership. He's not going to make or break our team.

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O_Gardino
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Re: Book of Igor

Post by O_Gardino »

Split T wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:22 pm
I think it's also important to realize that we're not getting Beverley to be a game changer for us. At best he'll play tough D, hit open 3's and provide vet leadership. He's not going to make or break our team.
Right. IF we are actually after him (I think it's very likely), and IF we actually get him, he's there to be a steady hand to guide the young PG's and run the offense without getting in the way.
The league needs heroes, villains... and clowns. -- Aztec Sunsfan

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pickle
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Re: Book of Igor

Post by pickle »

O_Gardino wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:23 pm
pickle wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:29 am
I agree. Saw rumors that we are after Pat Bev but refuse to give up a first rounder, but have offered second rounders. First off, thank god we are not giving up a first for Beverley. Secondly, this is exactly what I struggle with. I love defensive minded bulldogs who help change the team's identity, but how does Beverley help us with passing and decision making? Does he belong to the category of "making a trade for trading sake" and/or "starting caliber pg who doesn't actually help us"? He would definite stunt both Melton and Okobo without making the others better, unless he's such a good defender that he sets the tone and changes everyone's mentality.

I just can't wrap my head around this pg issue.
I don't think you've got the meat of the issue. None of the guys clearly good enough to help us out are available for what we can give up, and I don't think this front office will find an under rated steal of a player. Anybody like Beverly who we might actually get is going to be at best in the grey area of "maybe we shouldn't pursue this guy" and more likely, "we definitely should't go after him."
This is exactly the point of my confusion. I've seen a lot of people on this board pining for a starting caliber point guard for the team, but what does that really mean? I asked a bit more in a couple of different threads and it seems like we want our future pg to have good passing skills and offer leadership, and let's say the front office also thinks the same way (just an assumption -- that or I lose all faith in this front office). Then I turn around and look at the list of names we are linked with and see nobody that currently fits those criteria. In this particular case, Beverley seems highly redundant with Shaq and Melton and would stunt growth of Okobo. So why are we giving up an asset to get him? I am just not seeing the light.

Who, in your opinion, is good enough to help us out?

Last year I actually kind of wanted Rubio.

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O_Gardino
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Re: Book of Igor

Post by O_Gardino »

pickle wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:31 am
O_Gardino wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:23 pm
pickle wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:29 am
I agree. Saw rumors that we are after Pat Bev but refuse to give up a first rounder, but have offered second rounders. First off, thank god we are not giving up a first for Beverley. Secondly, this is exactly what I struggle with. I love defensive minded bulldogs who help change the team's identity, but how does Beverley help us with passing and decision making? Does he belong to the category of "making a trade for trading sake" and/or "starting caliber pg who doesn't actually help us"? He would definite stunt both Melton and Okobo without making the others better, unless he's such a good defender that he sets the tone and changes everyone's mentality.

I just can't wrap my head around this pg issue.
I don't think you've got the meat of the issue. None of the guys clearly good enough to help us out are available for what we can give up, and I don't think this front office will find an under rated steal of a player. Anybody like Beverly who we might actually get is going to be at best in the grey area of "maybe we shouldn't pursue this guy" and more likely, "we definitely should't go after him."
This is exactly the point of my confusion. I've seen a lot of people on this board pining for a starting caliber point guard for the team, but what does that really mean? I asked a bit more in a couple of different threads and it seems like we want our future pg to have good passing skills and offer leadership, and let's say the front office also thinks the same way (just an assumption -- that or I lose all faith in this front office). Then I turn around and look at the list of names we are linked with and see nobody that currently fits those criteria. In this particular case, Beverley seems highly redundant with Shaq and Melton and would stunt growth of Okobo. So why are we giving up an asset to get him? I am just not seeing the light.

Who, in your opinion, is good enough to help us out?

Last year I actually kind of wanted Rubio.
Oh, crap, that's a mistake in my post. I meant to say "I think you've got the meat of the issue." There shouldn't be a "don't" in there.

I think the question you are asking is 100% the crux of this conversation. Nobody who fits our criteria seems available, so some people want to settle for a PG who could help a little in other ways.

There's also some disagreement on a couple of key points.
Some folks prefer a good passing PG to initiate the offense, while others prefer a 3nD PG.
Some folks think Okobo/Harrison/Melton will grow better if they can get all the minutes, while others think the young guys need a veteran to show them how it's done, while still others think the growth of Booker / Jackson / Ayton is more important and would be helped more by a veteran PG.
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O_Gardino
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Re: Book of Igor

Post by O_Gardino »

I like Rubio, too. But he's not available.
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Split T
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Re: Book of Igor

Post by Split T »

Rubio has gotten better, but I've never been a huge fan. His shot is respectable enough now that he's not a liability, so I'd be fine with him, but he's not available.

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Mori Chu
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Re: Book of Igor

Post by Mori Chu »

Sigh...

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specialsauce
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Re: Book of Igor

Post by specialsauce »

Ricky Rubio last season averaged 6.5 assists to 3.3 TO per 36 on 35% 3P shooting.

Pat Beverly in 16/17 (last healthy season) averaged 4.9 assists to 1.7 TO on 38% shooting in a similar role.

Assuming Beverly is recovering fine from surgery, I don’t see the allure of Rubio in a case where we don’t want a ball dominant PG. Maybe others have a skewed opinion of him because of his appearance.

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Mori Chu
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Re: Book of Igor

Post by Mori Chu »

specialsauce wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:03 pm
Ricky Rubio last season averaged 6.5 assists to 3.3 TO per 36 on 35% 3P shooting.

Pat Beverly in 16/17 (last healthy season) averaged 4.9 assists to 1.7 TO on 38% shooting in a similar role.

Assuming Beverly is recovering fine from surgery, I don’t see the allure of Rubio in a case where we don’t want a ball dominant PG. Maybe others have a skewed opinion of him because of his appearance.
I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I don't think you can just jump to showing Pat Beverley's "last healthy season" stats at this point. He's had two leg injuries since then. He may get back to his 2016-17 numbers, but it's a real leap to point to stats from before the injuries and use them to compare against another player's healthy 2017-18 season stats.

Link to both players on Basketball Reference:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/pl ... ori01.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/pl ... rpa01.html

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specialsauce
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Re: Book of Igor

Post by specialsauce »

Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:29 pm
specialsauce wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:03 pm
Ricky Rubio last season averaged 6.5 assists to 3.3 TO per 36 on 35% 3P shooting.

Pat Beverly in 16/17 (last healthy season) averaged 4.9 assists to 1.7 TO on 38% shooting in a similar role.

Assuming Beverly is recovering fine from surgery, I don’t see the allure of Rubio in a case where we don’t want a ball dominant PG. Maybe others have a skewed opinion of him because of his appearance.
I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I don't think you can just jump to showing Pat Beverley's "last healthy season" stats at this point. He's had two leg injuries since then. He may get back to his 2016-17 numbers, but it's a real leap to point to stats from before the injuries and use them to compare against another player's healthy 2017-18 season stats.

Link to both players on Basketball Reference:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/pl ... ori01.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/pl ... rpa01.html
Of course. I recognize that it all comes with a big assumption with Beverly that he has to be healthy. That’s on the Suns to figure out.

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