Ryan out as GM

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Superbone
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Re: Ryan out as GM

Post by Superbone »

Look at Pickle coming in here looking to mix things up on opening night. Don't rain on my parade, Pickle! No freaking way I'm trading Booker for Doncic. Booker has the heart of a champion. Doncic has a loooooonnnnnnggg way to go. You be tripping, man!
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pickle
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Re: Ryan out as GM

Post by pickle »

Superbone wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:16 pm
Look at Pickle coming in here looking to mix things up on opening night. Don't rain on my parade, Pickle! No freaking way I'm trading Booker for Doncic. Booker has the heart of a champion. Doncic has a loooooonnnnnnggg way to go. You be tripping, man!
Easy there. We are just talking hypothetical scenarios, and there's no chance that trade ever gets made anyway, so nobody's really raining on anybody's parade. Staying with players on the team all the way to the end was not part of the Suns fandom package. And what is the heart of a champion anyway? Is this something we know for sure Doncic doesn't have? I mean he did win both the Euroleague tournament and the ACB league championship within the span of one summer...
Last edited by pickle on Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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pickle
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Re: Ryan out as GM

Post by pickle »

In2ition wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:10 pm
pickle wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:53 pm
In2ition wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:42 pm
The defense is not just bad, it's quite plainly atrocious... but besides that, if we are making real Harden comparisons, then he doesn't have the passing required to run an offense, right? His pick and roll turnover percentage is quite high, as I recall. I'm afraid what I see out of him (which is admittedly not much as I don't get enough time to watch games these days) is not the best player on a championship team level. He may be the second best, or even 3rd, given that he may be repeatedly targeted on D like Curry does, and not be enough of an offensive plus to compensate for it.

All of this is theoretical at this point. I have consistently read that he's as competitive as they come, so I do hope that he can improve his D as time goes along. So far though, I haven't seen much and it worries me.
I'm not expecting him to be on Harden's level of a passer yet, so I hardly consider that a hole in his offensive game. He did have the highest rate of potential assists that weren't converted in the league last year(or something like that), meaning his assist total should have been much higher and turnovers lower if his teammates could make a shot or not fumble the pass. Apparently there is a stat for that on nba.com.

Watching every game the past couple years, you could see that his defensive effort was much better, but his off ball awareness needs improvement along with improving fighting over screens. I wouldn't go so far as regurgitation such words as "atrocious", but it wasn't like his feet were held to the fire on a team that was bad and tanking. I've seen much worse and it's not the first time a player saved his energy on the defensive end for the offensive end. As far as him not being a #1 option on a championship team, it's hard to say. I certainly would have wondered the same about Curry before he won, but I've heard that before and it's usually parroted by NBA stat geeks who have never actually watched Booker play and instead just look at stat spreadsheets.
It is true that with better teammates Booker's turnover issues should get better, but I don't read anybody on this board saying we already have our point guard situation figured out, so something's clearly still missing in terms of his play making skills. I've said this before, he's a plus passer for his position (along with Jackson and Bender), but he's obviously not at a level where he's going to dictate the plays on the offensive end and make his teammates better just yet.

On defense, the atrocious comment is not so much me regurgitating what I read than the video of the king of the hill pickup during the team USA summer work out. Booker does try, which actually worries me even more. He has a barely plus wingspan and has trouble bothering good shooters who are either longer than him or have good turnaround or fadeaway shots. He may be smart at position defense a la JJ Redick or Kyle Korver, but honestly none of those guys strike fear into anybody's hearts and they can both be attacked when the games matter.

And I'd hate for him to feel like he can ignore the defensive end of the court and focus on offense. Certainly this team needs firepower on the offensive side, but I'm sick and tired of a history of Suns stars who are good at offense and cannot hold their own on D. Back in the day, when Dwight first came into the league, I would've traded Amare for him in a heartbeat. A couple of years ago I would've traded Dragic or Bledsoe for Giannis in a heartbeat too. And recently in one of my fantasy dynasty leagues I traded Hayward straight up for Jarrett Allen. The point of these last three examples is not to say that I'm particularly good at evaluating talent -- I will admit to being quite average to bad at it -- but personally I'd like to pounce on potentially transcendental talent early, that's just a personal preference.

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Split T
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Re: Ryan out as GM

Post by Split T »

Are there people who wouldn't have traded dragic or Bledsoe for Giannis? I understand the desire for transcendent talent. I think Ayton could be one. Booker is a transcendent scorer. We'll see what else he becomes, but he's still 21.

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Ring_Wanted
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Re: Ryan out as GM

Post by Ring_Wanted »

The way Booker works and learns, I have zero doubt he'll master the pick and roll as the handler. And we are already talking about 25ppg on good efficiency while surrounded by the worst roster this franchise has ever seen, at age 20-21 season.

This is why we have suffered so much. Booker-Ayton has the chance to alter the landscape of the NBA. You don't pass on that. What you do is providing them with the right coach and role players so they have the best opportunity to realize that vast potential.

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JeremyG
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Re: Ryan out as GM

Post by JeremyG »

Ring_Wanted wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:04 am
The way Booker works and learns, I have zero doubt he'll master the pick and roll as the handler. And we are already talking about 25ppg on good efficiency while surrounded by the worst roster this franchise has ever seen, at age 20-21 season.

This is why we have suffered so much. Booker-Ayton has the chance to alter the landscape of the NBA. You don't pass on that. What you do is providing them with the right coach and role players so they have the best opportunity to realize that vast potential.
"Shaq and Kobe 2.0" looking good so far. 8-)
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pickle
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Re: Ryan out as GM

Post by pickle »

Split T wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:08 pm
Are there people who wouldn't have traded dragic or Bledsoe for Giannis? I understand the desire for transcendent talent. I think Ayton could be one. Booker is a transcendent scorer. We'll see what else he becomes, but he's still 21.
His freshman season when he could barely get off the pine? Hindsight is 20/20, but I wanted this back then. And I did have other examples, and I am just making a point that this is my general approach. FWIW I am also a big Hinkie supporter and wish that we had done the tanking more effectively. Let's not argue for arguing sake, I'm explaining my logic, no need to defeat every little thing I say as long as my point is made. I already said that I'm not actually a strong talent evaluator...

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pickle
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Re: Ryan out as GM

Post by pickle »

Ring_Wanted wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:04 am
The way Booker works and learns, I have zero doubt he'll master the pick and roll as the handler. And we are already talking about 25ppg on good efficiency while surrounded by the worst roster this franchise has ever seen, at age 20-21 season.

This is why we have suffered so much. Booker-Ayton has the chance to alter the landscape of the NBA. You don't pass on that. What you do is providing them with the right coach and role players so they have the best opportunity to realize that vast potential.
Hey, I'm often wrong, and as a Suns far i tend to always expect the worst, so that when I'm proven wrong I'm actually happy. Kind of masochistic that way, but this is what 28 years of fandom has done to me. I'd love to see Booker develop into a league average defensive player, and be proven wrong. Please, Devin, do that and I'll happily eat crow. It's not as though I'm rooting for this team to fail, it's just hard for me to be as optimistic as you guys.

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Ring_Wanted
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Re: Ryan out as GM

Post by Ring_Wanted »

Booker will never lock people down like MJ or Kobe, but I believe becoming average on team defense is well within Booker's grasp, especially if the rest of his lineups are better at it than our recent products. Defense intensity is largely a matter of will and is super countagious if your teammates are working their asses off. Getting rid of the tanking atmosphere will help for sure as well.

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Flagrant Fowl
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Re: Ryan out as GM

Post by Flagrant Fowl »

Booker is one of the handful of guys in the league who can take a shot from anywhere on the court and you're honestly not surprised that it went in.

Don't overthink it.
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Split T
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Re: Ryan out as GM

Post by Split T »

pickle wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:16 am
Split T wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:08 pm
Are there people who wouldn't have traded dragic or Bledsoe for Giannis? I understand the desire for transcendent talent. I think Ayton could be one. Booker is a transcendent scorer. We'll see what else he becomes, but he's still 21.
His freshman season when he could barely get off the pine? Hindsight is 20/20, but I wanted this back then. And I did have other examples, and I am just making a point that this is my general approach. FWIW I am also a big Hinkie supporter and wish that we had done the tanking more effectively. Let's not argue for arguing sake, I'm explaining my logic, no need to defeat every little thing I say as long as my point is made. I already said that I'm not actually a strong talent evaluator...
That's fair, I wasn't arguing for the sake of arguing. It was a question. I don't remember a time when Giannis wasn't considered an elite prospect. But I can't say I remember his first year all that much. I don't have a problem with your general approach, you're certainly welcome to believe that is the best approach and I think it has it's merits. I think what Hinkie did, or what McD did can be very effective if you make the right picks. The question becomes how you move the team out of asset collection mode. Neither hinkie or mcD got a chance to do that.

My only real disagreement is that you would trade Booker for Doncic. I think that's crazy and don't see how Doncic is any more transcendent than Booker.

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pickle
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Re: Ryan out as GM

Post by pickle »

I'm almost certain Giannis was seen as a huge gamble his first year and started to shine when Kidd started playing him as the pg in summer league after his rookie season and his versatility started to become apparent, but that's also a moot point. Even if you are right that everyone else would've done the same, this particular example still just enforces my argument that I don't mind giving up existing talent if there is a solid chance that I can upgrade that talent to higher levels.

In terms of Booker for Doncic trade, first off I wouldn't have done it straight up, I would've asked for more assets, but I'm not really sure what's possible (say another unprotected first rounder and maybe another prospect), so I didn't mention specifics. Secondly, if you'd asked the question who would say no in a Booker for Doncic straight up trade today, my inkling is that both Phoenix and Dallas would say no. Booker is great, I don't doubt this, but him at 40 mil per vs. Doncic at 6 per offers different value, and at this point Doncic has a stronger personality that can remove the stench of the tank more effectively (at least from what limited game replays I've seen), and offers more play making, while Booker is the better shooter by far. Doncic is a little bigger and has the potential to improve his athleticism with NBA training while Booker has already been in the league 2 years so there probably aren't much more in the way of low hanging fruits in upgrading his defense.

I can try to go on, but most of this is based on scouting reports, and something tells me I'm not going to change your mind anyway, so let's just agree to disagree.

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Split T
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Re: Ryan out as GM

Post by Split T »

Fair enough. Agree to disagree. Just one correction, Booker will make 27-33 million per year. Doncic will make 7-10 million per year.

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specialsauce
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Re: Ryan out as GM

Post by specialsauce »

I’d rather have Lance Blanks as GM than Pickle. Even he wouldn’t even mention the possibility of trading Booker for Doncic. We had the player Doncic strives to be: Hedo Turkoglu

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Re: Ryan out as GM

Post by Indy »

specialsauce wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:57 pm
I’d rather have Lance Blanks as GM than Pickle. Even he wouldn’t even mention the possibility of trading Booker for Doncic. We had the player Doncic strives to be: Hedo Turkoglu
You are crazy if you think he maxes out at Hedo. He may never get to be the 2nd Magic, but he will be closer to that than Hedo.

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Split T
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Re: Ryan out as GM

Post by Split T »

Hedo was pretty good there for awhile. 19/5/5 and shot 40% from 3. I think Doncic will have a better career, but Hedo is a decent comparison. Both highly skilled, and somewhat lacking athletically. I do think Doncic is a better athlete. Maybe some kind of Hedo/Grant Hill hybrid is where he ends up.

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Re: Ryan out as GM

Post by Indy »

Split T wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:18 am
Hedo was pretty good there for awhile. 19/5/5 and shot 40% from 3. I think Doncic will have a better career, but Hedo is a decent comparison. Both highly skilled, and somewhat lacking athletically. I do think Doncic is a better athlete. Maybe some kind of Hedo/Grant Hill hybrid is where he ends up.
He did that for 1 season only. His career is 11/4/3. Basically, what you saw here in Phoenix is pretty close to his career averages (9.5/4.0/2.3).

I would be extremely surprised if Luka is that low for any of those unless he is injured early and never recovers.

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ShelC
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Re: Ryan out as GM

Post by ShelC »

I was going to post earlier about Hedo but didn't....since we're still on the topic: I have no problem with Hedo's time here. He was a means to an end, but was a pro who got into shape and played well enough to get traded.

That said, I don't think Doncic ends up anywhere near Hedo and will be much better. I see a Manu/Harden type of player right now. Not saying he'll put up Harden numbers, but he's got that all around skillset both of those guys had.

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Split T
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Re: Ryan out as GM

Post by Split T »

Indy wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:22 am
Split T wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:18 am
H**o was pretty good there for awhile. 19/5/5 and shot 40% from 3. I think Doncic will have a better career, but H**o is a decent comparison. Both highly skilled, and somewhat lacking athletically. I do think Doncic is a better athlete. Maybe some kind of H**o/Grant Hill hybrid is where he ends up.
He did that for 1 season only. His career is 11/4/3. Basically, what you saw here in Phoenix is pretty close to his career averages (9.5/4.0/2.3).

I would be extremely surprised if Luka is that low for any of those unless he is injured early and never recovers.
You're right, that's why I said I expect Doncic to have a better career. I just don't think it's certain he'll be significantly better than peak hedo

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specialsauce
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Re: Ryan out as GM

Post by specialsauce »

Doncic won’t ever lead a team. He’ll be a great complementary player to a teams star. Booker is that team star. No comparison.

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