Ryan out as GM

Discussion of the league and of our favorite team.
User avatar
Superbone
Posts: 33490
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:44 am
Location: San Diego, CA (Phoenix Native)

Re: Ryan out as GM

Post by Superbone »

Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:12 am
Flagrant Fowl wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:48 pm
The conspiracy bug in my brain is telling me that they went after Bridges because they think he'll be better than Jackson and TJ, which allows them to trade either or both to get a star player. I'm reluctant to believe they'll be able to pull that off, so we're stuck with three young guys who play the same position.
Honestly I think this post is giving McDo too much credit for long-term planning and thinking about how players fit together. I think he just saw Bridges and decided he liked him as a player and moved to get him as an asset. I doubt he really thought about our SF rotation or our roster as a whole.
Yep, one of his biggest failures. Collecting assets rather than assembling a team. I now think he just got lucky in that first year that it all came together.
"Be Legendary."

User avatar
JCSunsfan
Posts: 2136
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2014 11:22 am

Re: Ryan out as GM

Post by JCSunsfan »

Superbone wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:07 am
Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:12 am
Flagrant Fowl wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:48 pm
The conspiracy bug in my brain is telling me that they went after Bridges because they think he'll be better than Jackson and TJ, which allows them to trade either or both to get a star player. I'm reluctant to believe they'll be able to pull that off, so we're stuck with three young guys who play the same position.
Honestly I think this post is giving McDo too much credit for long-term planning and thinking about how players fit together. I think he just saw Bridges and decided he liked him as a player and moved to get him as an asset. I doubt he really thought about our SF rotation or our roster as a whole.
Yep, one of his biggest failures. Collecting assets rather than assembling a team. I now think he just got lucky in that first year that it all came together.
There are three major steps in rebuilding.
1. Collecting assets.
2. Acquiring star players (by means of the assets aquired)
3. Assembling a team around the stars.

McD was still in #1 and #2. Sarver wants to finish #2 and move to #3.

McD is a scout and draft geek at heart.

User avatar
specialsauce
Posts: 7550
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:45 pm

Re: Ryan out as GM

Post by specialsauce »

JCSunsfan wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:23 pm
Superbone wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:07 am
Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:12 am
Flagrant Fowl wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:48 pm
The conspiracy bug in my brain is telling me that they went after Bridges because they think he'll be better than Jackson and TJ, which allows them to trade either or both to get a star player. I'm reluctant to believe they'll be able to pull that off, so we're stuck with three young guys who play the same position.
Honestly I think this post is giving McDo too much credit for long-term planning and thinking about how players fit together. I think he just saw Bridges and decided he liked him as a player and moved to get him as an asset. I doubt he really thought about our SF rotation or our roster as a whole.
Yep, one of his biggest failures. Collecting assets rather than assembling a team. I now think he just got lucky in that first year that it all came together.
There are three major steps in rebuilding.
1. Collecting assets.
2. Acquiring star players (by means of the assets aquired)
3. Assembling a team around the stars.

McD was still in #1 and #2. Sarver wants to finish #2 and move to #3.

McD is a scout and draft geek at heart.
McD had his star players after he drafted Ayton. He still managed to fail to put together a balanced roster when he used our best asset on Bridges without having a trade lined up for Warren or Jackson, then compounded that by using all our space on signing Ariza. That was the moment you realize that this dude just doesnt get it.

User avatar
ShelC
Posts: 12253
Joined: Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:00 am

Re: Ryan out as GM

Post by ShelC »

Yes, yes, and yes to the 3 previous posts.

I consider McD and people in FOs like him "technical" GMs/execs. They know the routines, know how to interact with other team/league execs, know contracts, etc and generally how to do the job. But that doesn't mean they're actually any good at the job. I'm talking about putting a winning team together or running the BOps side of things. From his personnel moves to his interaction/communication with players, he was pretty bad and he wasn't getting better over time.

User avatar
pickle
Posts: 3065
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2014 7:10 pm

Re: Ryan out as GM

Post by pickle »

Ring_Wanted wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:55 am
We are not close to winning not because we don't intend to (which we do, at least going by the official line), but because the FO couldn't design and/or execute a solid plan to bring balance to this roster, despite all the assets available.

Booker-Ayton is a monster core, and with them you can absolutely enter a season under a win now mindset, but you need the right kind of veteran role players (plus a third option, which I want to believe we already have in TJ). Supposedly they tried, but it looks like they failed miserably, given the gigantic holes in our roster at PG and PF.
I respectfully disagree. Booker is exciting but he hasn't been able to win anything, and there are still a lot of holes in his game. Ayton has been exciting, but until he proves on the court that he can be worth an additional 5-10 wins by himself, he's not there yet. Given what we had this summer, we are not anywhere near winning, and should not be forfeiting assets just because we are under some timeline that the owner prefers. Basketball-wise the team is not ready to compete yet. Maybe by next summer, if Ayton has shown that he can hold his own against the best and completely dominate inferior opponents, we establish some sort of identity, and are no longer giving up 115 points per game thanks to more cohesive team defense and to internal growth, and younger players start showing signs of growth under Kokoskov's tutelage, then I'll agree that we can start planning to win. Right now, all I want is discipline and growth for our young players and a consistent plan that we actually stick to. Anything more is a little unrealistic for me.

User avatar
pickle
Posts: 3065
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2014 7:10 pm

Re: Ryan out as GM

Post by pickle »

Superbone wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:07 am
Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:12 am
Flagrant Fowl wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:48 pm
The conspiracy bug in my brain is telling me that they went after Bridges because they think he'll be better than Jackson and TJ, which allows them to trade either or both to get a star player. I'm reluctant to believe they'll be able to pull that off, so we're stuck with three young guys who play the same position.
Honestly I think this post is giving McDo too much credit for long-term planning and thinking about how players fit together. I think he just saw Bridges and decided he liked him as a player and moved to get him as an asset. I doubt he really thought about our SF rotation or our roster as a whole.
Yep, one of his biggest failures. Collecting assets rather than assembling a team. I now think he just got lucky in that first year that it all came together.
I think that the moves this summer have shown a clear willingness to establishing an identity and assembling a team. Other than the inability to acquire a pg, all the other moves are consistent. Ariza is the ultimate role player who doesn't need shots and plays defense very hard; Bridges is one of the most NBA ready players in this draft, and maybe in several drafts (I mean profile coming out of college -- nobody saw Mitchell last year as what he was), and he is another super role player who doesn't need touches on offense but can smother the opposing ball handler with his incredible wingspan. I do get that some preferred SGA and he was a better prospect than Okobo even during draft time (in other words, before summer league and pre-season), but at the time nobody knew how NBA-ready he was, and he could easily have been just as unproductive as Okobo. After all, he wasn't even the designated star in Kentucky, but played his way onto the big stage.

I'm not saying McD is gold, or that his moves this summer were gold -- I was personally very upset that we gave up the unprotected Miami 2021 -- but his moves did demonstrate a clear focus towards defense and veteran leadership (no I don't consider Tyson Chandler a veteran leader), and for once I was happy with something that the Suns appeared to be doing. Until McD was fired. Not so much lamenting the loss of McD, but more so worried about the constant turnover, the total lack of commitment to one single strategy, and fearing that the future NBA might implement a Sarver rule based on what we are about to do next in our quest for a "starting caliber point guard" and the playoffs.

User avatar
pickle
Posts: 3065
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2014 7:10 pm

Re: Ryan out as GM

Post by pickle »

Split T wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:19 am
Gotcha. What would you have done differently?

I was ok with the trade for Bridges. I think Philly took advantage of us a little as we were on the clock, but I like Bridges enough that I'm ok with it. I think we should have just drafted Zhaire and continued negotiating. We apparently didn't like Zhaire enough to get stuck with him.

If I could redo our off season, I would make one slight change. I'd trade up for SGA instead of Bridges. I loved them both, had SGA 7 and Bridges 8 on my board, but SGA made more sense from a need standpoint. I probably wouldn't have drafted Okobo at 31. I love Okobo, but after taking a PG already, I probably would have taken Khyri Thomas, who I also loved.

PG: SGA, Canaan, Melton
SG: Booker, Thomas, Daniels
SF: Ariza, Jackson, Reed
PF: Anderson, Warren, Bender
C: Ayton, Holmes, Chandler
I would've thrown whatever we could've at Atlanta to get that #3 pick, and get Doncic. Hell I might even consider Booker, but of course we'd better get back more than just that #3 pick, but I'd have been willing to consider it.

User avatar
Split T
Posts: 25468
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:51 am
Location: Provo, Utah

Re: Ryan out as GM

Post by Split T »

pickle wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:06 pm
Split T wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:19 am
Gotcha. What would you have done differently?

I was ok with the trade for Bridges. I think Philly took advantage of us a little as we were on the clock, but I like Bridges enough that I'm ok with it. I think we should have just drafted Zhaire and continued negotiating. We apparently didn't like Zhaire enough to get stuck with him.

If I could redo our off season, I would make one slight change. I'd trade up for SGA instead of Bridges. I loved them both, had SGA 7 and Bridges 8 on my board, but SGA made more sense from a need standpoint. I probably wouldn't have drafted Okobo at 31. I love Okobo, but after taking a PG already, I probably would have taken Khyri Thomas, who I also loved.

PG: SGA, Canaan, Melton
SG: Booker, Thomas, Daniels
SF: Ariza, Jackson, Reed
PF: Anderson, Warren, Bender
C: Ayton, Holmes, Chandler
I would've thrown whatever we could've at Atlanta to get that #3 pick, and get Doncic. Hell I might even consider Booker, but of course we'd better get back more than just that #3 pick, but I'd have been willing to consider it.
It's easy to come up with better plans if you start including impossible ones. We can say all we want that we would have traded for another pick and taken Doncic in addition to Ayton, but that's not realistic.

Now, you did mention you'd consider moving Booker, so that changes things as I think #3 would be in play, but I would have considered that as bad a move as trading for Knight was

User avatar
specialsauce
Posts: 7550
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:45 pm

Re: Ryan out as GM

Post by specialsauce »

pickle wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:58 pm
Ring_Wanted wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:55 am
We are not close to winning not because we don't intend to (which we do, at least going by the official line), but because the FO couldn't design and/or execute a solid plan to bring balance to this roster, despite all the assets available.

Booker-Ayton is a monster core, and with them you can absolutely enter a season under a win now mindset, but you need the right kind of veteran role players (plus a third option, which I want to believe we already have in TJ). Supposedly they tried, but it looks like they failed miserably, given the gigantic holes in our roster at PG and PF.
I respectfully disagree. Booker is exciting but he hasn't been able to win anything, and there are still a lot of holes in his game. Ayton has been exciting, but until he proves on the court that he can be worth an additional 5-10 wins by himself, he's not there yet. Given what we had this summer, we are not anywhere near winning, and should not be forfeiting assets just because we are under some timeline that the owner prefers. Basketball-wise the team is not ready to compete yet. Maybe by next summer, if Ayton has shown that he can hold his own against the best and completely dominate inferior opponents, we establish some sort of identity, and are no longer giving up 115 points per game thanks to more cohesive team defense and to internal growth, and younger players start showing signs of growth under Kokoskov's tutelage, then I'll agree that we can start planning to win. Right now, all I want is discipline and growth for our young players and a consistent plan that we actually stick to. Anything more is a little unrealistic for me.
I found McDonoughs burner account

User avatar
pickle
Posts: 3065
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2014 7:10 pm

Re: Ryan out as GM

Post by pickle »

Split T wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:25 pm
It's easy to come up with better plans if you start including impossible ones. We can say all we want that we would have traded for another pick and taken Doncic in addition to Ayton, but that's not realistic.

Now, you did mention you'd consider moving Booker, so that changes things as I think #3 would be in play, but I would have considered that as bad a move as trading for Knight was
Yeah, I think I'm just not as high on Booker as others here are. I do love having him, but I wish he really were in the Klay mode rather than the poor man's Harden mode. I want our star guard to be able to actually guard.

User avatar
pickle
Posts: 3065
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2014 7:10 pm

Re: Ryan out as GM

Post by pickle »

specialsauce wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:28 pm
pickle wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:58 pm
Ring_Wanted wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:55 am
We are not close to winning not because we don't intend to (which we do, at least going by the official line), but because the FO couldn't design and/or execute a solid plan to bring balance to this roster, despite all the assets available.

Booker-Ayton is a monster core, and with them you can absolutely enter a season under a win now mindset, but you need the right kind of veteran role players (plus a third option, which I want to believe we already have in TJ). Supposedly they tried, but it looks like they failed miserably, given the gigantic holes in our roster at PG and PF.
I respectfully disagree. Booker is exciting but he hasn't been able to win anything, and there are still a lot of holes in his game. Ayton has been exciting, but until he proves on the court that he can be worth an additional 5-10 wins by himself, he's not there yet. Given what we had this summer, we are not anywhere near winning, and should not be forfeiting assets just because we are under some timeline that the owner prefers. Basketball-wise the team is not ready to compete yet. Maybe by next summer, if Ayton has shown that he can hold his own against the best and completely dominate inferior opponents, we establish some sort of identity, and are no longer giving up 115 points per game thanks to more cohesive team defense and to internal growth, and younger players start showing signs of growth under Kokoskov's tutelage, then I'll agree that we can start planning to win. Right now, all I want is discipline and growth for our young players and a consistent plan that we actually stick to. Anything more is a little unrealistic for me.
I found McDonoughs burner account
I don't follow you. Just because I'm not ready to declare this team on an upward swing, I'm a McD apologist? I've made several other posts where I tend to be less severe on him than others on the board, and you pick this one?

User avatar
Split T
Posts: 25468
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:51 am
Location: Provo, Utah

Re: Ryan out as GM

Post by Split T »

pickle wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:31 pm
Split T wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:25 pm
It's easy to come up with better plans if you start including impossible ones. We can say all we want that we would have traded for another pick and taken Doncic in addition to Ayton, but that's not realistic.

Now, you did mention you'd consider moving Booker, so that changes things as I think #3 would be in play, but I would have considered that as bad a move as trading for Knight was
Yeah, I think I'm just not as high on Booker as others here are. I do love having him, but I wish he really were in the Klay mode rather than the poor man's Harden mode. I want our star guard to be able to actually guard.
I get that, we'll have to deal with his defeciencies at some point. Don't think Doncic is the answer though. While offensively brilliant, he may be just as bad as Booker defensively.

User avatar
specialsauce
Posts: 7550
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:45 pm

Re: Ryan out as GM

Post by specialsauce »

pickle wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:33 pm
specialsauce wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:28 pm
pickle wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:58 pm
Ring_Wanted wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:55 am
We are not close to winning not because we don't intend to (which we do, at least going by the official line), but because the FO couldn't design and/or execute a solid plan to bring balance to this roster, despite all the assets available.

Booker-Ayton is a monster core, and with them you can absolutely enter a season under a win now mindset, but you need the right kind of veteran role players (plus a third option, which I want to believe we already have in TJ). Supposedly they tried, but it looks like they failed miserably, given the gigantic holes in our roster at PG and PF.
I respectfully disagree. Booker is exciting but he hasn't been able to win anything, and there are still a lot of holes in his game. Ayton has been exciting, but until he proves on the court that he can be worth an additional 5-10 wins by himself, he's not there yet. Given what we had this summer, we are not anywhere near winning, and should not be forfeiting assets just because we are under some timeline that the owner prefers. Basketball-wise the team is not ready to compete yet. Maybe by next summer, if Ayton has shown that he can hold his own against the best and completely dominate inferior opponents, we establish some sort of identity, and are no longer giving up 115 points per game thanks to more cohesive team defense and to internal growth, and younger players start showing signs of growth under Kokoskov's tutelage, then I'll agree that we can start planning to win. Right now, all I want is discipline and growth for our young players and a consistent plan that we actually stick to. Anything more is a little unrealistic for me.
I found McDonoughs burner account
I don't follow you. Just because I'm not ready to declare this team on an upward swing, I'm a McD apologist? I've made several other posts where I tend to be less severe on him than others on the board, and you pick this one?
Sorry pickle, just a little tease that’s all didn’t mean to upset

User avatar
In2ition
Posts: 11385
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:35 pm

Re: Ryan out as GM

Post by In2ition »

pickle wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:58 pm
Ring_Wanted wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:55 am
We are not close to winning not because we don't intend to (which we do, at least going by the official line), but because the FO couldn't design and/or execute a solid plan to bring balance to this roster, despite all the assets available.

Booker-Ayton is a monster core, and with them you can absolutely enter a season under a win now mindset, but you need the right kind of veteran role players (plus a third option, which I want to believe we already have in TJ). Supposedly they tried, but it looks like they failed miserably, given the gigantic holes in our roster at PG and PF.
I respectfully disagree. Booker is exciting but he hasn't been able to win anything, and there are still a lot of holes in his game. Ayton has been exciting, but until he proves on the court that he can be worth an additional 5-10 wins by himself, he's not there yet. Given what we had this summer, we are not anywhere near winning, and should not be forfeiting assets just because we are under some timeline that the owner prefers. Basketball-wise the team is not ready to compete yet. Maybe by next summer, if Ayton has shown that he can hold his own against the best and completely dominate inferior opponents, we establish some sort of identity, and are no longer giving up 115 points per game thanks to more cohesive team defense and to internal growth, and younger players start showing signs of growth under Kokoskov's tutelage, then I'll agree that we can start planning to win. Right now, all I want is discipline and growth for our young players and a consistent plan that we actually stick to. Anything more is a little unrealistic for me.
What are all the holes of Booker's game, besides defense? I'm failing to see the holes on the offensive end, but you might have some in mind.
"When we all think alike, nobody is thinking" - Walter Lippmann
"Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them." ~ Frederick Douglass

User avatar
pickle
Posts: 3065
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2014 7:10 pm

Re: Ryan out as GM

Post by pickle »

specialsauce wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:40 pm
pickle wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:33 pm
specialsauce wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:28 pm
I found McDonoughs burner account
I don't follow you. Just because I'm not ready to declare this team on an upward swing, I'm a McD apologist? I've made several other posts where I tend to be less severe on him than others on the board, and you pick this one?
Sorry pickle, just a little tease that’s all didn’t mean to upset
Not upset... just didn't understand coz I didn't see the McD apologist angle that I've definitely exhibited in quite a few other posts over the last couple of weeks. All good...

User avatar
pickle
Posts: 3065
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2014 7:10 pm

Re: Ryan out as GM

Post by pickle »

Split T wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:37 pm
pickle wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:31 pm
Split T wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:25 pm
It's easy to come up with better plans if you start including impossible ones. We can say all we want that we would have traded for another pick and taken Doncic in addition to Ayton, but that's not realistic.

Now, you did mention you'd consider moving Booker, so that changes things as I think #3 would be in play, but I would have considered that as bad a move as trading for Knight was
Yeah, I think I'm just not as high on Booker as others here are. I do love having him, but I wish he really were in the Klay mode rather than the poor man's Harden mode. I want our star guard to be able to actually guard.
I get that, we'll have to deal with his defeciencies at some point. Don't think Doncic is the answer though. While offensively brilliant, he may be just as bad as Booker defensively.
Yeah it's hard to project forward to what Doncic may or may not be able to do. However, I think he plays capable and smart team defense, even if he's not exactly considered a stopper due to limited athleticism. I am not sure why Booker is so bad on D, but being ranked about last 3 or so out of all SG qualified players in the league is not just your average bad... that's approaching unplayable in the finals territory. Granted we are many years away from the finals and maybe between now and then his defensive game can pick up, but I'm not counting on it. Also, the fact that we gave Booker that max contract means we've already accelerated our timeline. To trade out of it and pick up another rookie with the exact same timeline as Ayton means we have more flexibility. If they are both huge hits a la Simmons and Embiid, we'd instantly have a lot of cap to add quality role players and maybe splash for one star to go all in, or if they take time we preserve our space and bide our time until we are ready. Either way you look at it, I probably prefer Doncic plus a future asset to Booker right now.

Again, I love Booker. I just am not so sure that he's the cornerstone of a future championship contender.
Last edited by pickle on Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
pickle
Posts: 3065
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2014 7:10 pm

Re: Ryan out as GM

Post by pickle »

In2ition wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:42 pm
pickle wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:58 pm

I respectfully disagree. Booker is exciting but he hasn't been able to win anything, and there are still a lot of holes in his game. Ayton has been exciting, but until he proves on the court that he can be worth an additional 5-10 wins by himself, he's not there yet. Given what we had this summer, we are not anywhere near winning, and should not be forfeiting assets just because we are under some timeline that the owner prefers. Basketball-wise the team is not ready to compete yet. Maybe by next summer, if Ayton has shown that he can hold his own against the best and completely dominate inferior opponents, we establish some sort of identity, and are no longer giving up 115 points per game thanks to more cohesive team defense and to internal growth, and younger players start showing signs of growth under Kokoskov's tutelage, then I'll agree that we can start planning to win. Right now, all I want is discipline and growth for our young players and a consistent plan that we actually stick to. Anything more is a little unrealistic for me.
What are all the holes of Booker's game, besides defense? I'm failing to see the holes on the offensive end, but you might have some in mind.
The defense is not just bad, it's quite plainly atrocious... but besides that, if we are making real Harden comparisons, then he doesn't have the passing required to run an offense, right? His pick and roll turnover percentage is quite high, as I recall. I'm afraid what I see out of him (which is admittedly not much as I don't get enough time to watch games these days) is not the best player on a championship team level. He may be the second best, or even 3rd, given that he may be repeatedly targeted on D like Curry does, and not be enough of an offensive plus to compensate for it.

All of this is theoretical at this point. I have consistently read that he's as competitive as they come, so I do hope that he can improve his D as time goes along. So far though, I haven't seen much and it worries me.

User avatar
In2ition
Posts: 11385
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:35 pm

Re: Ryan out as GM

Post by In2ition »

pickle wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:53 pm
In2ition wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:42 pm
pickle wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:58 pm

I respectfully disagree. Booker is exciting but he hasn't been able to win anything, and there are still a lot of holes in his game. Ayton has been exciting, but until he proves on the court that he can be worth an additional 5-10 wins by himself, he's not there yet. Given what we had this summer, we are not anywhere near winning, and should not be forfeiting assets just because we are under some timeline that the owner prefers. Basketball-wise the team is not ready to compete yet. Maybe by next summer, if Ayton has shown that he can hold his own against the best and completely dominate inferior opponents, we establish some sort of identity, and are no longer giving up 115 points per game thanks to more cohesive team defense and to internal growth, and younger players start showing signs of growth under Kokoskov's tutelage, then I'll agree that we can start planning to win. Right now, all I want is discipline and growth for our young players and a consistent plan that we actually stick to. Anything more is a little unrealistic for me.
What are all the holes of Booker's game, besides defense? I'm failing to see the holes on the offensive end, but you might have some in mind.
The defense is not just bad, it's quite plainly atrocious... but besides that, if we are making real Harden comparisons, then he doesn't have the passing required to run an offense, right? His pick and roll turnover percentage is quite high, as I recall. I'm afraid what I see out of him (which is admittedly not much as I don't get enough time to watch games these days) is not the best player on a championship team level. He may be the second best, or even 3rd, given that he may be repeatedly targeted on D like Curry does, and not be enough of an offensive plus to compensate for it.

All of this is theoretical at this point. I have consistently read that he's as competitive as they come, so I do hope that he can improve his D as time goes along. So far though, I haven't seen much and it worries me.
I'm not expecting him to be on Harden's level of a passer yet, so I hardly consider that a hole in his offensive game. He did have the highest rate of potential assists that weren't converted in the league last year(or something like that), meaning his assist total should have been much higher and turnovers lower if his teammates could make a shot or not fumble the pass. Apparently there is a stat for that on nba.com.

Watching every game the past couple years, you could see that his defensive effort was much better, but his off ball awareness needs improvement along with improving fighting over screens. I wouldn't go so far as regurgitation such words as "atrocious", but it wasn't like his feet were held to the fire on a team that was bad and tanking. I've seen much worse and it's not the first time a player saved his energy on the defensive end for the offensive end. As far as him not being a #1 option on a championship team, it's hard to say. I certainly would have wondered the same about Curry before he won, but I've heard that before and it's usually parroted by NBA stat geeks who have never actually watched Booker play and instead just look at stat spreadsheets.
Last edited by In2ition on Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"When we all think alike, nobody is thinking" - Walter Lippmann
"Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them." ~ Frederick Douglass

User avatar
Superbone
Posts: 33490
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:44 am
Location: San Diego, CA (Phoenix Native)

Re: Ryan out as GM

Post by Superbone »

pickle wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:31 pm
Split T wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:25 pm
It's easy to come up with better plans if you start including impossible ones. We can say all we want that we would have traded for another pick and taken Doncic in addition to Ayton, but that's not realistic.

Now, you did mention you'd consider moving Booker, so that changes things as I think #3 would be in play, but I would have considered that as bad a move as trading for Knight was
Yeah, I think I'm just not as high on Booker as others here are. I do love having him, but I wish he really were in the Klay mode rather than the poor man's Harden mode. I want our star guard to be able to actually guard.
Boo!
"Be Legendary."

User avatar
Split T
Posts: 25468
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:51 am
Location: Provo, Utah

Re: Ryan out as GM

Post by Split T »

I don't think Booker needs to be Harden on offense. Especially not yet. He's an incredible talent, let's let him grow. Same with Ayton

Post Reply