Game Day: Suns (1-3) @ Grizzlies (2-2), Sat 10/27/18

[INFORMER]

Hot take: Josh Jackson is the second coming of Archie Goodwin. Only difference is one of them was the fourth overall pick so people are more patient

Jackson has more talent than Goodwin.

No, he doesn’t.

Proof is in the pudding.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/pl ... dx=players

What proof? The question isn't whether Jackson is playing well. No one is going to dispute that he is playing poorly. But there was a reason why Jackson was a top 5 pick and Goodwin was a late first rounder. Showing me the stats for two struggling young players doesn't tell me anything about their talent.

[specialsauce]

Hot take: Josh Jackson is the second coming of Archie Goodwin. Only difference is one of them was the fourth overall pick so people are more patient

Jackson has more talent than Goodwin.

No, he doesn’t.

Proof is in the pudding.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/pl ... dx=players

What proof? The question isn't whether Jackson is playing well. No one is going to dispute that he is playing poorly. But there was a reason why Jackson was a top 5 pick and Goodwin was a late first rounder. Showing me the stats for two struggling young players doesn't tell me anything about their talent.

Yeah, it does. What talent do you speak of? He’s not talented defensively or offensively. Archie was quick getting up and down the court, both have explosion to the rim with wreckless abandon.

[Ring_Wanted]

Going through my timeline this just had me puzzled
Was Ryan really trying to low-key say that he felt he should have played more ??

https://twitter.com/DuaneRankin/status/1056446180404723712

Hahahah I read this as an aplogy for getting too much time while knowing he is hurting the team.

[ShelC]

Jackson has more talent than Goodwin.

No, he doesn’t.

Proof is in the pudding.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/pl ... dx=players

What proof? The question isn't whether Jackson is playing well. No one is going to dispute that he is playing poorly. But there was a reason why Jackson was a top 5 pick and Goodwin was a late first rounder. Showing me the stats for two struggling young players doesn't tell me anything about their talent.

Yeah, it does. What talent do you speak of? He’s not talented defensively or offensively. Archie was quick getting up and down the court, both have explosion to the rim with wreckless abandon.

Archie was a straight line player/athlete with no maturity or bball IQ. Jackson is a much more mature person, higher IQ and has handles to push on the break and finish or set others up or create off the dribble in the halfcourt. He has breakdown ability, which shouldn't go overlooked. The issues are bad habits he got away with in college (he can't jump over or outhustle smaller/slower players), the form on his jumper, and a system that almost emphasizes his weaknesses.

[specialsauce]

No, he doesn’t.

Proof is in the pudding.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/pl ... dx=players

What proof? The question isn't whether Jackson is playing well. No one is going to dispute that he is playing poorly. But there was a reason why Jackson was a top 5 pick and Goodwin was a late first rounder. Showing me the stats for two struggling young players doesn't tell me anything about their talent.

Yeah, it does. What talent do you speak of? He’s not talented defensively or offensively. Archie was quick getting up and down the court, both have explosion to the rim with wreckless abandon.

Archie was a straight line player/athlete with no maturity or bball IQ. Jackson is a much more mature person, higher IQ and has handles to push on the break and finish or set others up or create off the dribble in the halfcourt. He has breakdown ability, which shouldn't go overlooked. The issues are bad habits he got away with in college (he can't jump over or outhustle smaller/slower players), the form on his jumper, and a system that almost emphasizes his weaknesses.

This sounds like a scouting report that doesn’t match the product on the court at all which makes me question whether you’ve had a chance to watch the games this year? Your description of Archie exactly matches Joshs play. Mature with high IQ! Lol yeah sure.

[ShelC]

I've seen the games this year. Not pretty and Josh hasn't been good at all, but there's still a set of skills Archie never showed. I like Josh's PnR ability but he needs to get better obviously. I like that he can handle and go at his man, but his jumper is terrible and when he leaves his feet he makes bad decisions. I never saw much in the halfcourt from Archie in terms of breakdown or change of direction.

[Split T]

As bad a shooter Jackson has been, Archie was worse. I think it's also important to remember, Archie put up most his stats in garbage time when defenses had relaxed. Jackson has been asked to be the focal point of an offense. He's been bad at it, but the talent is there.

Jackson is bigger, a better ball handler, has more passing chops, and better defensive potential. If we're comparing stats, go look at their freshman seasons in college. Jackson was much better. He hasn't done it in the NBA yet, but I'm not writing him off yet. He's had 3 coaches, been asked to take on different roles, many of which don't suit him yet, and has played with a revolving door of teammates, including absolute trash pg's.

I'm not gonna sit here and say I'm not concerned, he's obviously been dissapointing and not come close to fulfilling my draft day expectations, but he's not Archie.

Let's throw this running the PG stuff out, tell him to focus on defense and being a cog in the offense. Get him the ball on cuts to the hoop that let him use his quickness to get to the rim. A few PNR plays with Ayton are fine, but he's not ready to be a primary initiator of the offense. Igor needs to either stop putting him in those situations or tell him to stop it if he's taking it on himself.

[Mori Chu]

I might be the biggest Josh Jackson hater on here. My nickname for him is "The Net Negative." But he's way better than Archie Goodwin.

[In2ition]

Other than chemistry on the pnr and lob passes to Ayton, Jackson hasn't shown the passing skills that he was touted for coming into the draft. Honestly, I didn't really see it at Kansas either. The passes they highlighted during that year were rudimentary, and he was just as prone to throw it away if he wasn't making a pass to someone one pass away.

They really need to simplify the game for him, where he isn't the primary ball handler. He would be better as a secondary or even the third playmaker. He needs to focus on his defense, rebounding, and understand where he can score from.

[Indy]

I might be the biggest Josh Jackson hater on here. My nickname for him is "The Net Negative." But he's way better than Archie Goodwin.

Every rotation player on our team is a net negative besides Ayton. But after last game, JJ is a net -50 points per 100 possessions. That is astonishing.

JJ has twice as many negative win shares as his nearest competitors, of the guys that have played 100 minutes or more this season (223 of them).

Of the 223 guys that have played at least 100 minutes this season:
Suns have:
*7 total guys (AD, Book, Ryan, Ariza, Canaan, TJ, JJ)
*Starters, minus Ayton, combine for a MINUS 72 points per 100 possessions
*Ryan -15, Canaan -23, Ariza -25, Booker -9
Ayton +18, top 15% of the league

[specialsauce]

Sorry, any of these posts touting his talents are just living off his draft hype and not based off actual observation. He takes bad angles to the rim, throws up a wild shot and is consistently turning the ball over. None of his hall handling abilities matter when he can’t shoot it or pass it well enough to do anything positive with the end result. He is flat out awful on both ends of the court. He attacks the rim relentlessly just like Archie Goodwin. That’s the only thing either of them have ever done as a Suns player. He has no skill out on the court right now that is a positive to the team. Troy Daniels is a better player than him right now by far, and I am not a Troy Daniels fan. At least he brings one valuable skill to the team.

Any mention about his passing chops is a flat out lie. He is by far the biggest turnover machine on the team. Can’t even make simple passes.

Again, any mention about his defensive “potential” is just hope and not based on anything that he has actually shown and the stats don’t lie.

[Superbone]

Another thing about Jackson is that he loves to go for the monster dunk but he seems to clang most of them off the rim. It would be cool if he could make a couple of those.

[Superbone]

Bottom line for me about Jackson is that he should be in a Shawn Marion role, not a leading role.

[specialsauce]

Bottom line for me about Jackson is that he should be in a Shawn Marion role, not a leading role.

Except he doesn’t accept that role, at least not yet. Shawn never tried to play outside of his strengths. Josh has the same mentality as Pj Tucker, who was also a Sun notorious for thinking he was capable of much more offensively than he really was.

[ShelC]

Bottom line for me about Jackson is that he should be in a Shawn Marion role, not a leading role.

Except he doesn’t accept that role, at least not yet. Shawn never tried to play outside of his strengths. Josh has the same mentality as Pj Tucker, who was also a Sun notorious for thinking he was capable of much more offensively than he really was.

Ehhh Shawn had a high opinion of himself and thought he should've had more opportunities. I don't think Jackson isn't accepting of a role, he's just being asked to do a lot - as others have pointed out. I'm not saying he hasn't been bad or made bad plays, but the potential is still there IMO.

[specialsauce]

Bottom line for me about Jackson is that he should be in a Shawn Marion role, not a leading role.

Except he doesn’t accept that role, at least not yet. Shawn never tried to play outside of his strengths. Josh has the same mentality as Pj Tucker, who was also a Sun notorious for thinking he was capable of much more offensively than he really was.

Ehhh Shawn had a high opinion of himself and thought he should've had more opportunities. I don't think Jackson isn't accepting of a role, he's just being asked to do a lot - as others have pointed out. I'm not saying he hasn't been bad or made bad plays, but the potential is still there IMO.

I don’t think anyone is asking him to take the ball and drive wild to the basket and turn the ball over. It’s a simple come off the screen, take the ball, and find the open man. That is not a lot to ask of a player.

And it doesn’t matter what Shawn thought of himself, bottom line is he played within his role and didn’t try to be anything he wasn’t; you very rarely saw Matrix trying to emulate Magic Johnson.

[Shabazz]

I think the Jackson we're seeing now is worse than the one we saw at any point last year. I don't know what happened over the summer.

Saucy, I think you're discounting how he performed the whole second half of last season. That was a pretty good player and cause for optimism going forward. Again, not sure what happened there. He looks like a shell of that player.

[Superbone]

I think the Jackson we're seeing now is worse than the one we saw at any point last year. I don't know what happened over the summer.

Saucy, I think you're discounting how he performed the whole second half of last season. That was a pretty good player and cause for optimism going forward. Again, not sure what happened there. He looks like a shell of that player.

All true. Let's hope he gets it together. Maybe coach needs to sit him a game which worked so well for Triano last year.

[specialsauce]

I think the Jackson we're seeing now is worse than the one we saw at any point last year. I don't know what happened over the summer.

Saucy, I think you're discounting how he performed the whole second half of last season. That was a pretty good player and cause for optimism going forward. Again, not sure what happened there. He looks like a shell of that player.

I think you don’t remember that at that time Josh was the only offensive option aside TJ and we chalked up his poor shot selection and turnovers to that.

He was the same player all along, we just had hoped once Booker came back, with Ayton and real coaching he would pull back. He hasn’t, and he’s worse

[In2ition]

I hate to say this, because it may seem like I want the worst for Josh, but it's not true. I remember going to the Suns draft party last year, and a Suns rep was asking me what I thought as soon as the pick was announced and the arena was filled with cheers. I told him that I was a little disappointed. I would have rather had Tatum, which wasn't possible, Fox, or trade down and pick up a couple players. Also, the 2nd round picks were underwhelming to say the least.