Suns News: Week 18 2/11-2/17

[Superbone]

It's like Christmas up in here.

[Indy]

Serious question...do you want the games?

Want to win? Or just want to watch? Not sure what you mean.

[Superbone]

Serious question...do you want the games?

Want to win? Or just want to watch? Not sure what you mean.

He meant "watch" as in "do you watch the games?"

[Indy]

Oh, if that was to me, then yes. Unfortunately I watch the games. I haven't watched all of them this year (when I travel if my connection isn't great and can't get a stream, I don't usually go back and watch the game later). I think I have missed 8-10 this season. I don't think we won any of them...

[Ring_Wanted]

I have not watched a lot. Probably my lowest ever since the NBA became fully avilable to me.

But you know what? I have certainly watched enough. Actually I've watched too much.

[AmareIsGod]

For the life of me I can't believe some people are actually in favor of trading Warren and keeping Jackson. One is proven as a scorer and actually has improved as a shooter. Sure has limitations, but at least is a positive on one end of the floor.

The other is one of the worst offensive players in the whole NBA and doesn't bring anything relevant elsewhere, including defense. If Jackson was not a #4 pick nobody would want him to play more than 15mpg, and that's being generous.

Please take a look at this graph (via Reddit) showing the best and worst offensive players in the league:



And that's far from stat noise. When you watch Jackson play, most times all you see is a weak guy with some handles but who is just a TO waiting to happen, who can't make shots and who goes hard against a wall of defenders and launches a brick towards the rim. When was the last time he locked anyone down on defense?

He gives me the same vibes Brandon Knight did.

But TJ misses so many games... and doesn't rebound... and doesn't pass.

Are those not valid points? How is it that we're wrong? He misses a fair amount of games for not suffering significant injuries, he's a very poor passer and doesn't haul in many rebounds. He scores and has a high FG% along with an increased (substantially) 3 point %. Is he winning us games? Is his scoring and scoring efficiency making up for his lack of rebounding, lack of passing and games missed? But lets gloss over that repeatedly and pretend those that have issues with TJ are grossly over-exaggerating things.

[iLLmatic]

For the life of me I can't believe some people are actually in favor of trading Warren and keeping Jackson. One is proven as a scorer and actually has improved as a shooter. Sure has limitations, but at least is a positive on one end of the floor.

The other is one of the worst offensive players in the whole NBA and doesn't bring anything relevant elsewhere, including defense. If Jackson was not a #4 pick nobody would want him to play more than 15mpg, and that's being generous.

Please take a look at this graph (via Reddit) showing the best and worst offensive players in the league:



And that's far from stat noise. When you watch Jackson play, most times all you see is a weak guy with some handles but who is just a TO waiting to happen, who can't make shots and who goes hard against a wall of defenders and launches a brick towards the rim. When was the last time he locked anyone down on defense?

He gives me the same vibes Brandon Knight did.

But TJ misses so many games... and doesn't rebound... and doesn't pass.

Are those not valid points? How is it that we're wrong? He misses a fair amount of games for not suffering significant injuries, he's a very poor passer and doesn't haul in many rebounds. He scores and has a high FG% along with an increased (substantially) 3 point %. Is he winning us games? Is his scoring and scoring efficiency making up for his lack of rebounding, lack of passing and games missed? But lets gloss over that repeatedly and pretend those that have issues with TJ are grossly over-exaggerating things.

All the same questions could be directed at Booker.

[iLLmatic]

I have not watched a lot. Probably my lowest ever since the NBA became fully avilable to me.

But you know what? I have certainly watched enough. Actually I've watched too much.

I'm at about 5 this year, I'm certainly not a warrior like some of the rest of y'all.

[Indy]

For the life of me I can't believe some people are actually in favor of trading Warren and keeping Jackson. One is proven as a scorer and actually has improved as a shooter. Sure has limitations, but at least is a positive on one end of the floor.

The other is one of the worst offensive players in the whole NBA and doesn't bring anything relevant elsewhere, including defense. If Jackson was not a #4 pick nobody would want him to play more than 15mpg, and that's being generous.

Please take a look at this graph (via Reddit) showing the best and worst offensive players in the league:



And that's far from stat noise. When you watch Jackson play, most times all you see is a weak guy with some handles but who is just a TO waiting to happen, who can't make shots and who goes hard against a wall of defenders and launches a brick towards the rim. When was the last time he locked anyone down on defense?

He gives me the same vibes Brandon Knight did.

But TJ misses so many games... and doesn't rebound... and doesn't pass.

Are those not valid points? How is it that we're wrong? He misses a fair amount of games for not suffering significant injuries, he's a very poor passer and doesn't haul in many rebounds. He scores and has a high FG% along with an increased (substantially) 3 point %. Is he winning us games? Is his scoring and scoring efficiency making up for his lack of rebounding, lack of passing and games missed? But lets gloss over that repeatedly and pretend those that have issues with TJ are grossly over-exaggerating things.

All the same questions could be directed at Booker.

I think Booker is clearly a more valuable piece to a team starting with nothing than TJ is, but agreed, they are all valid questions of him, too.

[iLLmatic]

For the life of me I can't believe some people are actually in favor of trading Warren and keeping Jackson. One is proven as a scorer and actually has improved as a shooter. Sure has limitations, but at least is a positive on one end of the floor.

The other is one of the worst offensive players in the whole NBA and doesn't bring anything relevant elsewhere, including defense. If Jackson was not a #4 pick nobody would want him to play more than 15mpg, and that's being generous.

Please take a look at this graph (via Reddit) showing the best and worst offensive players in the league:



And that's far from stat noise. When you watch Jackson play, most times all you see is a weak guy with some handles but who is just a TO waiting to happen, who can't make shots and who goes hard against a wall of defenders and launches a brick towards the rim. When was the last time he locked anyone down on defense?

He gives me the same vibes Brandon Knight did.

But TJ misses so many games... and doesn't rebound... and doesn't pass.

Are those not valid points? How is it that we're wrong? He misses a fair amount of games for not suffering significant injuries, he's a very poor passer and doesn't haul in many rebounds. He scores and has a high FG% along with an increased (substantially) 3 point %. Is he winning us games? Is his scoring and scoring efficiency making up for his lack of rebounding, lack of passing and games missed? But lets gloss over that repeatedly and pretend those that have issues with TJ are grossly over-exaggerating things.

All the same questions could be directed at Booker.

I think Booker is clearly a more valuable piece to a team starting with nothing than TJ is, but agreed, they are all valid questions of him, too.

Of course. I gotta defend my man TJ though.

[Shabazz]

Serious question...do you watch the games?

Every one.

[Split T]

For the life of me I can't believe some people are actually in favor of trading Warren and keeping Jackson. One is proven as a scorer and actually has improved as a shooter. Sure has limitations, but at least is a positive on one end of the floor.

The other is one of the worst offensive players in the whole NBA and doesn't bring anything relevant elsewhere, including defense. If Jackson was not a #4 pick nobody would want him to play more than 15mpg, and that's being generous.

Please take a look at this graph (via Reddit) showing the best and worst offensive players in the league:



And that's far from stat noise. When you watch Jackson play, most times all you see is a weak guy with some handles but who is just a TO waiting to happen, who can't make shots and who goes hard against a wall of defenders and launches a brick towards the rim. When was the last time he locked anyone down on defense?

He gives me the same vibes Brandon Knight did.

It’s not really about Jackson. Trade him too for all I care. My thoughts on moving warren are independent of my thoughts on Jackson. Obviously warren is better right now, but I still consider Jackson a prospect. Warren is on his second contract and I think we could use his roster spot and money in a way that better benefits the team.

[Ring_Wanted]

Those points are absolutely fair. But look around. It's mostly abysmal. Warren is not untouchable but his flaws are not a liability to the team. I'll take that from a 20ppg scorer.

[AmareIsGod]

Those points are absolutely fair. But look around. It's mostly abysmal. Warren is not untouchable but his flaws are not a liability to the team. I'll take that from a 20ppg scorer.

Missing 20-25% of games definitely isn't a liability to a team. It's just 20 or so games a season. We need more guys like TJ (like Indy pointed out, Booker misses a lot of games too and makes bad passes while being a defensive liability).

[ShelC]

Yea sorry meant, "watch the games" in response to Ring's post about JJ vs TJ. And that wasn't a shot or anything, just curious because JJ's been playing well of late and his averages are right there. The TOs are high but that's something I think he'll get better with in time. But over the last month, he's been making basketball plays as a ball handler, he's getting in the lane and kicking out to shooters, I've seen him lock down on defense and get deflections playing the passing lanes. He's not perfect but you can feel his impact. Like I said yesterday with Oubre, it's an eye test kind of thing.

And I don't want to sound like I'm knocking TJ to elevate Oubre or Jackson. But I just don't see TJ's value to a winning team just because he scores 20ppg. A lot of guys can score 20ppg. But even with TJ's offense - and I know this is going to sound rough - it's kind of garbage offense. It's scoring off some broken plays, flip shots in the lane, a midrange jumper, a 3. He's honestly a great scorer and amazing around the basket...but is that really what you see on winning teams? He's got no real go-to moves - no step back, no pull up, no postgame, not a blow-by-dribble-drive guy. There's not much fundamentally sound offense with him that makes him all that useful in a halfcourt setting. I wouldn't mind as much if he were 6-10, but at 6-8 with average athleticism, rebounding, defense, and passing? And again, we have 3 other SFs on the roster I'm more inclined to keep/re-sign/give minutes to.

[Split T]

Those points are absolutely fair. But look around. It's mostly abysmal. Warren is not untouchable but his flaws are not a liability to the team. I'll take that from a 20ppg scorer.

I just look at booker and Ayton as our obvious building blocks. To me, warren doesn’t fit with them unless he’s a 6th man off the bench.

We have a couple guys that look like they are potential fits(Bridges and Melton) and then Jackson is a pretty big question mark because I’m not sure where he ends up as a player. Right now he’s not good, but if his ball handling, passing, shooting, and finishing skills develop enough...he could be.

[jonh]

Those points are absolutely fair. But look around. It's mostly abysmal. Warren is not untouchable but his flaws are not a liability to the team. I'll take that from a 20ppg scorer.

I just look at booker and Ayton as our obvious building blocks. To me, warren doesn’t fit with them unless he’s a 6th man off the bench.

We have a couple guys that look like they are potential fits(Bridges and Melton) and then Jackson is a pretty big question mark because I’m not sure where he ends up as a player. Right now he’s not good, but if his ball handling, passing, shooting, and finishing skills develop enough...he could be.

With that mentality, if I just increased my ball handling, passing, shooting, and finishing skills develop enough, I could also be a good player.

Plus, Im inexperienced and really don't have a firm grasp of rotations or team construction, so if it doesn't work out as a player, I could always apply to be the next head coach or GM.

[Split T]

Those points are absolutely fair. But look around. It's mostly abysmal. Warren is not untouchable but his flaws are not a liability to the team. I'll take that from a 20ppg scorer.

I just look at booker and Ayton as our obvious building blocks. To me, warren doesn’t fit with them unless he’s a 6th man off the bench.

We have a couple guys that look like they are potential fits(Bridges and Melton) and then Jackson is a pretty big question mark because I’m not sure where he ends up as a player. Right now he’s not good, but if his ball handling, passing, shooting, and finishing skills develop enough...he could be.

With that mentality, if I just increased my ball handling, passing, shooting, and finishing skills develop enough, I could also be a good player.

Plus, Im inexperienced and really don't have a firm grasp of rotations or team construction, so if it doesn't work out as a player, I could always apply to be the next head coach or GM.

I get your point, which is why Jackson has a long ways to go, but he has the skills to be a good ball handler, passer, etc. It’s just whether or not they develop to a high enough level where it’s beneficial to the team. Zach Lowe mentioned this today in his column in comparing Bridges and Jackson. It’s easy to see what Bridges role is...Jackson is still a question. I’ll post the Lowe comments.

[Split T]

Jackson is among the toughest young players to project forward. He can do so much more with the ball than Mikal Bridges, and yet his future -- his place on a theoretical good team -- feels so much less certain. We know what Bridges is: a spot-up shooter with the length to defend multiple positions. That skill set is portable.

Is Jackson? Is he good enough at the things he's nominally good at to do them for a winning team? If not, can he improve the stuff at which he's bad? Any team sniffing around Jackson over the next year has to try to answer those questions.

A random cross-positional comparison: The way Jackson moves with a kind of syncopated freneticism reminds of Jabari Parker. He moves at a different rhythm than the typical NBA player. That can be a good thing -- a way to wrong-foot defenses. It can also be tricky to play with someone whose movement patterns are jagged and hard to predict.

Case in point: Jackson releases his floater, perhaps his favorite shot, with quirks of timing and distance that seem to surprise everyone -- from a step farther out than most dare, off the wrong foot, on the way down.


Those long-distance line drives can land with a thud. His pick-and-roll partners -- Deandre Ayton and Richaun Holmes -- sometimes don't know if they should jump for a lob or shift into rebounding mode.

On the very next pick-and-roll, Jackson might prod more carefully, pull up before drawing help, and loft a pass that isn't there:


Jackson has coughed up the ball on about 13 percent of pick-and-rolls, the 10th-highest rate among almost 200 players who have finished at least 100 such plays, per Second Spectrum.

He's shooting just 30 percent from deep; defenses duck under screens when he has the ball, and ignore him when he doesn't.

And yet! Jackson is 22. He has the tools to develop into a lockdown defender. He has decent passing instincts; he just lacks the supplementary skills to activate those passing instincts as often as he'd like.

Jackson isn't good enough with the ball right now to handle it on a good team, but he's not a good-enough shooter to play off of it. He's a puzzle the whole league is trying to solve.

[jonh]

Jackson is among the toughest young players to project forward. He can do so much more with the ball than Mikal Bridges, and yet his future -- his place on a theoretical good team -- feels so much less certain. We know what Bridges is: a spot-up shooter with the length to defend multiple positions. That skill set is portable.

Is Jackson? Is he good enough at the things he's nominally good at to do them for a winning team? If not, can he improve the stuff at which he's bad? Any team sniffing around Jackson over the next year has to try to answer those questions.

A random cross-positional comparison: The way Jackson moves with a kind of syncopated freneticism reminds of Jabari Parker. He moves at a different rhythm than the typical NBA player. That can be a good thing -- a way to wrong-foot defenses. It can also be tricky to play with someone whose movement patterns are jagged and hard to predict.

Case in point: Jackson releases his floater, perhaps his favorite shot, with quirks of timing and distance that seem to surprise everyone -- from a step farther out than most dare, off the wrong foot, on the way down.


Those long-distance line drives can land with a thud. His pick-and-roll partners -- Deandre Ayton and Richaun Holmes -- sometimes don't know if they should jump for a lob or shift into rebounding mode.

On the very next pick-and-roll, Jackson might prod more carefully, pull up before drawing help, and loft a pass that isn't there:


Jackson has coughed up the ball on about 13 percent of pick-and-rolls, the 10th-highest rate among almost 200 players who have finished at least 100 such plays, per Second Spectrum.

He's shooting just 30 percent from deep; defenses duck under screens when he has the ball, and ignore him when he doesn't.

And yet! Jackson is 22. He has the tools to develop into a lockdown defender. He has decent passing instincts; he just lacks the supplementary skills to activate those passing instincts as often as he'd like.

Jackson isn't good enough with the ball right now to handle it on a good team, but he's not a good-enough shooter to play off of it. He's a puzzle the whole league is trying to solve.

Yeah, I saw that article. One of the reasons why I would be fine keeping Igor another season is because of just how much turnover these young players have had. I think it has really stunted the growth of the young players. I'd love to just have some consistency at the head coaching position.