Around the League: The Off-season

Discussion of the league and of our favorite team.
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bajanguy008
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Re: Around the League: The Off-season

Post by bajanguy008 » Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:05 pm

Indy wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:17 pm
bajanguy008 wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:14 pm
wpmiller42 wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:42 pm
INFORMER wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:16 pm
Split T wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:14 pm
Pelicans released Christian Wood. I’d definitely look at him to take our last roster spot.
That would be a tremendous pickup. I worry though that he may not even clear waivers. And even if he does, I think a team like Houston will try to snatch him up.
Yeah, I hope we make a run at him. How long does it take to clear waivers? I just did a Google search and it doesn't sound like he's been picked up yet.
Claimed by Detroit
Which means we passed on him, right?
Oh sorry man
I wouldn't have checked on that stuff, I get the waived concept from playing fantasy league lol but I'm not aware who would have what priority in the actual NBA
Was just posting that I saw him being scooped
SUNS Fan from the Land of Sun, Sea and Sand ;)

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Indy
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Re: Around the League: The Off-season

Post by Indy » Thu Jul 18, 2019 5:27 am

bajanguy008 wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:05 pm
Indy wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:17 pm
bajanguy008 wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:14 pm
wpmiller42 wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:42 pm
INFORMER wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:16 pm


That would be a tremendous pickup. I worry though that he may not even clear waivers. And even if he does, I think a team like Houston will try to snatch him up.
Yeah, I hope we make a run at him. How long does it take to clear waivers? I just did a Google search and it doesn't sound like he's been picked up yet.
Claimed by Detroit
Which means we passed on him, right?
Oh sorry man
I wouldn't have checked on that stuff, I get the waived concept from playing fantasy league lol but I'm not aware who would have what priority in the actual NBA
Was just posting that I saw him being scooped
no worries. I thought it went in reverse order of record at the end of the season. So only the Knicks and Cavs had priority over us. But not sure on that.

da_suns_fan
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Re: Around the League: The Off-season

Post by da_suns_fan » Thu Jul 18, 2019 6:59 am

ShelC wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:08 am
INFORMER wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:15 pm
ShelC wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 10:35 am
There are a few actually. Rubio is a 10+ year vet with proven experience as a starter. Jones has averaged 17mpg mostly as a backup on bad TWolves teams and his shooting percentages aren't that far off from Rubio's.

We are a team in desperate need of a steady hand at PG who can make the game easier for our younger players. Jones would just be another young, relatively unproven player on the roster who we'd be hoping is good enough to start. In Memphis, he's perfect to take up minutes until Ja is ready or is a good backup if Ja is given the reins.

Maybe you can make the point of worth in terms of Rubio vs Jones on paper. But for us, Rubio is worth the contract at the moment.
Rubio really hasn't accomplished anything. So the value of his "vet experience" is negligible. He isn't the guy that leads a team or commands a lockeroom. He is a skilled passer that can't struggles to shoot. Utah has been solid, but he wasn't driving that team, and in the playoffs, Jazz fans wanted him off the court and Rockets fans were loving every second he was on the court.

The quality of the Wolves has nothing to do with assessing Jones. That is a misleading comment. Rubio played on Wolves teams that were just as bad. Rubio didn't get better when he went to Utah, he just went to a better team.
Rubio's a starting point guard in the league, I know that much. And he fits the roster we have. Starting PGs cost money, more than backups. You want to pay for a backup, you're going to get one.
Is he TALENTED enough to be a starting point guard in the NBA? Sure.

But his last team decided to trade draft picks etc so they could upgrade themselves at the point guard position. They saw Rubio's flaws are too great to actually win a playoff series.

So I say if youre looking for a starting point guard and there are potential all-stars available (D'Angello, Brogdon etc), why are you settling for Utah's leftovers?

da_suns_fan
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Re: Around the League: The Off-season

Post by da_suns_fan » Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:03 am

I want to pull my hair out when people compare Rubio to Nash.

Yes, they were both foreign born, long-haired point guards who were both great passers.

But Rubio's greatest weakness was one of Nash's greatest strengths. Rubio can't shoot and Steve Nash basically owns the 50/40/90 club:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50%E2%80% ... %9390_club

Drewsprocket
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Re: Around the League: The Off-season

Post by Drewsprocket » Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:13 am

da_suns_fan wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 6:59 am
ShelC wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:08 am
INFORMER wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:15 pm
ShelC wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 10:35 am
There are a few actually. Rubio is a 10+ year vet with proven experience as a starter. Jones has averaged 17mpg mostly as a backup on bad TWolves teams and his shooting percentages aren't that far off from Rubio's.

We are a team in desperate need of a steady hand at PG who can make the game easier for our younger players. Jones would just be another young, relatively unproven player on the roster who we'd be hoping is good enough to start. In Memphis, he's perfect to take up minutes until Ja is ready or is a good backup if Ja is given the reins.

Maybe you can make the point of worth in terms of Rubio vs Jones on paper. But for us, Rubio is worth the contract at the moment.
Rubio really hasn't accomplished anything. So the value of his "vet experience" is negligible. He isn't the guy that leads a team or commands a lockeroom. He is a skilled passer that can't struggles to shoot. Utah has been solid, but he wasn't driving that team, and in the playoffs, Jazz fans wanted him off the court and Rockets fans were loving every second he was on the court.

The quality of the Wolves has nothing to do with assessing Jones. That is a misleading comment. Rubio played on Wolves teams that were just as bad. Rubio didn't get better when he went to Utah, he just went to a better team.
Rubio's a starting point guard in the league, I know that much. And he fits the roster we have. Starting PGs cost money, more than backups. You want to pay for a backup, you're going to get one.
Is he TALENTED enough to be a starting point guard in the NBA? Sure.

But his last team decided to trade draft picks etc so they could upgrade themselves at the point guard position. They saw Rubio's flaws are too great to actually win a playoff series.

So I say if youre looking for a starting point guard and there are potential all-stars available (D'Angello, Brogdon etc), why are you settling for Utah's leftovers?
I strongly doubt we win more games with a maxed out D’Angelo. Rubio will make his teammates better and help feed Ayton the ball. DA would pound the ball into oblivion taking 18-20 shots a game.

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In2ition
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Re: Around the League: The Off-season

Post by In2ition » Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:23 am

Average STARTING PG is worlds better than average GLEAGUE PG. Rubio is a phenomenal passer, but is a pedestrian shooter at the position. The problem with Rubio in Utah wasn't that he wasn't any good, it was that he wasn't a good enough shooter to make up for having 2 other non-shooters on the floor with him. And, I'm not calling Ricky a non-shooter...just a pedestrian one. He doesn't have the gravity to make himself a major threat and pull defenders away from the non-shooters. The other problem was that Quinn and Utah's system marginalized Rubio's biggest strength in his passing, by emphasizing a team passing offense and taking the ball out of his hands in favor of Mitchell.

I think in the right system that allows his ball handling, decision making and passing to shine, while being surrounded by shooters all over the floor would bring out a different player than we've seen from Ricky. But...we'll see if that holds true or not.
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O_Gardino
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Re: Around the League: The Off-season

Post by O_Gardino » Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:43 am

I'm somewhere in between the extreme takes on Rubio.

Take 1: He wasn't good enough to get Utah past Houston, so we shouldn't have signed him.
-- Silly. We improved our passing, defense, rebounding, and leadership at the pg position. We did not improve the shooting. We still need a better pg to eventually compete for a title, but Ricky will be a productive player for us while we build back to competitiveness.

Take 2: Rudio will be better here because he is in a different situation.
-- I don't know that the situation is actually all that different. We are going to start Oubre and Ayton, who both are limited shooters, and run a lot of the offence through Booker and Ayton, and let Saric and Oubre attack in space. I don't think he's going to FAIL here, but I do think his shooting will hurt us.

Take 3: We should only sign obscure players who have excelled in a backup role and we should get them on value contacts.
-- I see your ghost account, McD, and I'm glad you still believe. Never change. I would be more comfortable if Ricky was on a 2 year deal, but 3 years gives us time to draft a stud PG next summer and give him 2 years of development with Ricky as a mentor.
SELL THE TEAM
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ShelC
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Re: Around the League: The Off-season

Post by ShelC » Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:58 am

Celtics won with Rondo at point. Everything depends on roster makeup and system.

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Indy
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Re: Around the League: The Off-season

Post by Indy » Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:40 am

In short, we could have done a good bit better and a lot worse than Rubio as our starting PG for 3 years at 17 per year.

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specialsauce
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Re: Around the League: The Off-season

Post by specialsauce » Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:51 am

It’s really average is what it is. After suffering though misery for 10 years, I want more than average. We didn’t bottom out so we can max our rebuild again at average.

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Marty [Mori Chu]
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Re: Around the League: The Off-season

Post by Marty [Mori Chu] » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:00 pm

In2ition wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:23 am
Average STARTING PG is worlds better than average GLEAGUE PG. Rubio is a phenomenal passer, but is a pedestrian shooter at the position. The problem with Rubio in Utah wasn't that he wasn't any good, it was that he wasn't a good enough shooter to make up for having 2 other non-shooters on the floor with him. And, I'm not calling Ricky a non-shooter...just a pedestrian one. He doesn't have the gravity to make himself a major threat and pull defenders away from the non-shooters. The other problem was that Quinn and Utah's system marginalized Rubio's biggest strength in his passing, by emphasizing a team passing offense and taking the ball out of his hands in favor of Mitchell.

I think in the right system that allows his ball handling, decision making and passing to shine, while being surrounded by shooters all over the floor would bring out a different player than we've seen from Ricky. But...we'll see if that holds true or not.
This is where I'm at on Rubio. I agree with folks who say he isn't Nash and that we shouldn't expect Nash. Rubio isn't a good shooter, and Nash is one of the all-time great shooters. But I disagree with the argument that because he left Utah and Utah wanted Conley, Rubio is some kind of bum. As In2 sagely points out, the issue wasn't Rubio's talent so much as the fit. Utah really wants to run their offense as a slow half-court style dominated by Mitchell holding the ball. They also start Gobert who is not an outside shooter. Those two constraints mean that you need great shooting from the other 3 positions so Mitchell and Gobert have people to pass it out to after a drive or pick-and-roll. Rubio isn't very valuable as a spot-up shooter, so he wasn't a great fit for the offense they want to run. That's all there is to it.

Meanwhile, on a team like the Suns, I think Rubio is almost exactly what we need from our PG. Sure, it would be better if he were an above-average shooter. Absolutely. But I don't actually want a ball-dominant shoot-first PG like a Russell. That kind of PG would take shots and touches away from Booker and Ayton and could gum up our offense. We want the ball to move, and we mostly want a PG who can set up our other talented starters such as Booker, Ayton, and Oubre. And we want a PG who plays good perimeter and team defense to cover a bit for Booker on that end. And we want a PG who can run a fast break. I actually don't think D'Angelo Russell or Terry Rozier or whoever is actually a very good fit. I think Rubio actually fits our need much better. If Rubio can take smart shots and focus on what he's good at, I think it'll be a huge upgrade.

The other thing to remember is that our PGs last year were absolutely horrendous. We've almost forgotten how important the PG position is and how transformative having a good PG can be. I think Rubio will make a huge impact and just make a lot of other guys better. The improvement in, say, Ayton's game will be worth the price of admission on Rubio all by itself.

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Indy
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Re: Around the League: The Off-season

Post by Indy » Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:14 pm

Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:00 pm
In2ition wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:23 am
Average STARTING PG is worlds better than average GLEAGUE PG. Rubio is a phenomenal passer, but is a pedestrian shooter at the position. The problem with Rubio in Utah wasn't that he wasn't any good, it was that he wasn't a good enough shooter to make up for having 2 other non-shooters on the floor with him. And, I'm not calling Ricky a non-shooter...just a pedestrian one. He doesn't have the gravity to make himself a major threat and pull defenders away from the non-shooters. The other problem was that Quinn and Utah's system marginalized Rubio's biggest strength in his passing, by emphasizing a team passing offense and taking the ball out of his hands in favor of Mitchell.

I think in the right system that allows his ball handling, decision making and passing to shine, while being surrounded by shooters all over the floor would bring out a different player than we've seen from Ricky. But...we'll see if that holds true or not.
This is where I'm at on Rubio. I agree with folks who say he isn't Nash and that we shouldn't expect Nash. Rubio isn't a good shooter, and Nash is one of the all-time great shooters. But I disagree with the argument that because he left Utah and Utah wanted Conley, Rubio is some kind of bum. As In2 sagely points out, the issue wasn't Rubio's talent so much as the fit. Utah really wants to run their offense as a slow half-court style dominated by Mitchell holding the ball. They also start Gobert who is not an outside shooter. Those two constraints mean that you need great shooting from the other 3 positions so Mitchell and Gobert have people to pass it out to after a drive or pick-and-roll. Rubio isn't very valuable as a spot-up shooter, so he wasn't a great fit for the offense they want to run. That's all there is to it.

Meanwhile, on a team like the Suns, I think Rubio is almost exactly what we need from our PG. Sure, it would be better if he were an above-average shooter. Absolutely. But I don't actually want a ball-dominant shoot-first PG like a Russell. That kind of PG would take shots and touches away from Booker and Ayton and could gum up our offense. We want the ball to move, and we mostly want a PG who can set up our other talented starters such as Booker, Ayton, and Oubre. And we want a PG who plays good perimeter and team defense to cover a bit for Booker on that end. And we want a PG who can run a fast break. I actually don't think D'Angelo Russell or Terry Rozier or whoever is actually a very good fit. I think Rubio actually fits our need much better. If Rubio can take smart shots and focus on what he's good at, I think it'll be a huge upgrade.

The other thing to remember is that our PGs last year were absolutely horrendous. We've almost forgotten how important the PG position is and how transformative having a good PG can be. I think Rubio will make a huge impact and just make a lot of other guys better. The improvement in, say, Ayton's game will be worth the price of admission on Rubio all by itself.
Here are the PGs in the league that actually got playing time and took shots, but still shot worse that Ricky for 2P%, 3P%, and eFG%.

Code: Select all

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.
404

Nobody.

If you lower the requirements to only taking 500 shots the entire year, there was one other player in the league that shot less than 41% from 2, 32% from 3, and 46% eFG. It was Josh Okogie.

He isn't average or pedestrian. Last year he was as bad as it got for a rotation player in the league. Guys will sag off of him and clog the paint. I hope his great passing and knack for basketball will over come it, otherwise it will be a long 3 years and that 17.8M in year three will look awful.

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In2ition
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Re: Around the League: The Off-season

Post by In2ition » Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:45 pm

I'm not super worried, but I get it. I guess I'm looking at the 2020 draft for that next great franchise PG to be picked, or hopefully Lecque becomes that. The Suns need to help him with his shot, and build the team accordingly to help him out. I think it helps to have shooters surrounding him, but we'll see.
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INFORMER
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Re: Around the League: The Off-season

Post by INFORMER » Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:14 pm

ShelC wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:08 am
Rubio's a starting point guard in the league, I know that much.
You're handing out participation awards. There are a lot of guys that start in this league that aren't very good. Danny Green has been starter for a long time, but if I am out to find an impact starter at the 2 spot, I'm not signing Danny Green.
ShelC wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:08 am
Starting PGs cost money, more than backups. You want to pay for a backup, you're going to get one.
This is a curious take from a fan of a franchise that has had Kevin Johnson and Steve Nash.
Free agent targets: Cheick Diallo, Rondae Hollis-Jefferson, Joakim Noah, Theo Pinson

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INFORMER
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Re: Around the League: The Off-season

Post by INFORMER » Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:17 pm

O_Gardino wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:07 am
Tyus is shooting .327 vs the Rockets for his career. I bet Rockets fans would have hated facing him in the playoffs.
The point isn't that Jones is a superior shooter. The point is that Rubio isn't better than him. So I would take Jones who is younger, still has some upside, and costs half as much.
Free agent targets: Cheick Diallo, Rondae Hollis-Jefferson, Joakim Noah, Theo Pinson

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INFORMER
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Re: Around the League: The Off-season

Post by INFORMER » Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:19 pm

Drewsprocket wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:13 am
I strongly doubt we win more games with a maxed out D’Angelo. Rubio will make his teammates better and help feed Ayton the ball. DA would pound the ball into oblivion taking 18-20 shots a game.
I do prefer Rubio to Russell.
Free agent targets: Cheick Diallo, Rondae Hollis-Jefferson, Joakim Noah, Theo Pinson

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INFORMER
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Re: Around the League: The Off-season

Post by INFORMER » Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:23 pm

O_Gardino wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:43 am
Take 1: He wasn't good enough to get Utah past Houston, so we shouldn't have signed him.
Utah wasn't good enough to get past Houston; it wasn't on Rubio to get them past them. Houston was the superior team. But Rubio's performance against the Rockets should give fans pause, much like Ariza's abysmal play in the playoffs should have given the Suns' pause last offseason.
O_Gardino wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:43 am
Take 3: We should only sign obscure players who have excelled in a backup role and we should get them on value contacts.
That take doesn't exist.
Free agent targets: Cheick Diallo, Rondae Hollis-Jefferson, Joakim Noah, Theo Pinson

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SDC
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Re: Around the League: The Off-season

Post by SDC » Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:01 pm

carey wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:18 am

You'll occasionally see a game where Rubio looks like a lights out shooter too. They are all over YouTube. It's just sometimes you get that 2-10 game that balances him out as a 40/30/85 guy. I can't figure out why his FT% is so good while has other percentages aren't.
he doesnt have nba level athleticism to score efficiently in this league. But i still think he can be a good catch and shoot guy if he's open.

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SDC
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Re: Around the League: The Off-season

Post by SDC » Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:28 pm

interesting.
Last edited by SDC on Sat Jul 20, 2019 1:27 am, edited 2 times in total.

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ShelC
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Re: Around the League: The Off-season

Post by ShelC » Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:25 am

INFORMER wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:14 pm
ShelC wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:08 am
Rubio's a starting point guard in the league, I know that much.
You're handing out participation awards. There are a lot of guys that start in this league that aren't very good. Danny Green has been starter for a long time, but if I am out to find an impact starter at the 2 spot, I'm not signing Danny Green.
ShelC wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:08 am
Starting PGs cost money, more than backups. You want to pay for a backup, you're going to get one.
This is a curious take from a fan of a franchise that has had Kevin Johnson and Steve Nash.
There are a lot of starters in the league who may not have as much talent as some bench guys, but are better starters or fit a system more than some other talented guys. Danny Green isn't an impact starter at the 2 spot? Weird, he's got two rings. If i'm a veteran team looking for a winning player who can hit 3s and play defense, Green's my guy even if there are more talented SGs out there.

And being a starting PG in the league for 10 years means something. It just does, and that's what we need. Not another 19 year old from the draft. Not some unproven backup from a bad team. We need players who can step in and play. Jones may be a nice player, but he's unknown as a starter in the league and we needed to make headway this offseason with the roster. There's no question heading into training camp now about the PG position, so if nothing else you're paying for peace of mind.

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