Around the League: The Off-season

Discussion of the league and of our favorite team.
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Indy
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Re: Around the League: The Off-season

Post by Indy » Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:21 am

ShelC wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:25 am
INFORMER wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:14 pm
ShelC wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:08 am
Rubio's a starting point guard in the league, I know that much.
You're handing out participation awards. There are a lot of guys that start in this league that aren't very good. Danny Green has been starter for a long time, but if I am out to find an impact starter at the 2 spot, I'm not signing Danny Green.
ShelC wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:08 am
Starting PGs cost money, more than backups. You want to pay for a backup, you're going to get one.
This is a curious take from a fan of a franchise that has had Kevin Johnson and Steve Nash.
There are a lot of starters in the league who may not have as much talent as some bench guys, but are better starters or fit a system more than some other talented guys. Danny Green isn't an impact starter at the 2 spot? Weird, he's got two rings. If i'm a veteran team looking for a winning player who can hit 3s and play defense, Green's my guy even if there are more talented SGs out there.

And being a starting PG in the league for 10 years means something. It just does, and that's what we need. Not another 19 year old from the draft. Not some unproven backup from a bad team. We need players who can step in and play. Jones may be a nice player, but he's unknown as a starter in the league and we needed to make headway this offseason with the roster. There's no question heading into training camp now about the PG position, so if nothing else you're paying for peace of mind.
But this proven starter is a guy that was horrific last year from the field, and has a career win percentage of .454. He is a great defender (let's hope his mileage won't affect it has he ages through this contract) and is very good at setting up players/passing. But all of these folks (not you) comparing him to when we signed Nash is just crazy talk.

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ShelC
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Re: Around the League: The Off-season

Post by ShelC » Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:33 am

Every player has faults. You're not going to find a perfect player to come to a 20 win team, regardless of a max contract. If it were DLo, it'd be defense and needing the ball to be effective. Kyrie, it'd be attitude and injuries.

I think the way the roster is constructed, we can minimize Rubio's main weakness as a shooter. We have Ayton in the post, we have Booker on the wing, Oubre and Saric are threats from 3, as are Kaminsky, Bridges and (hopefully) Cam and Ty.

When I see the comps to Nash, I never see them as comparisons in terms of skillset. I see the comp as a veteran PG coming to a young team with talent that needs someone to put it all together. Before Nash we had JJ, Shawn and Amare. Before Rubio we had Booker, Ayton, Oubre and Bridges. Nash was the engine to that Ferrari, I'll settle for Rubio being the engine to this...Audi R8?

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Indy
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Re: Around the League: The Off-season

Post by Indy » Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:42 am

ShelC wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:33 am
Every player has faults. You're not going to find a perfect player to come to a 20 win team, regardless of a max contract. If it were DLo, it'd be defense and needing the ball to be effective. Kyrie, it'd be attitude and injuries.

I think the way the roster is constructed, we can minimize Rubio's main weakness as a shooter. We have Ayton in the post, we have Booker on the wing, Oubre and Saric are threats from 3, as are Kaminsky, Bridges and (hopefully) Cam and Ty.

When I see the comps to Nash, I never see them as comparisons in terms of skillset. I see the comp as a veteran PG coming to a young team with talent that needs someone to put it all together. Before Nash we had JJ, Shawn and Amare. Before Rubio we had Booker, Ayton, Oubre and Bridges. Nash was the engine to that Ferrari, I'll settle for Rubio being the engine to this...Audi R8?
I will say it again--signing Rubio is fine. It isn't a great or smart move, and we had to over pay to get him. But he should help the team to a point this year. If we are set on running the offense through Ayton a ton :) more, then his weakness as a shooter will stand out. If we do that, like Monty said, he better be running all over the place setting hard screens for Booker and Bridges and Cam.

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Split T
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Re: Around the League: The Off-season

Post by Split T » Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:48 am

I think his lack of shooting will be less noticeable than in Utah, but we’ll notice it. It’ll be frustrating. I’m hoping he magically pulls a Jason Kidd and becomes a competent spot up shooter.

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Superbone
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Re: Around the League: The Off-season

Post by Superbone » Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:55 am

Indy wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:42 am
ShelC wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:33 am
Every player has faults. You're not going to find a perfect player to come to a 20 win team, regardless of a max contract. If it were DLo, it'd be defense and needing the ball to be effective. Kyrie, it'd be attitude and injuries.

I think the way the roster is constructed, we can minimize Rubio's main weakness as a shooter. We have Ayton in the post, we have Booker on the wing, Oubre and Saric are threats from 3, as are Kaminsky, Bridges and (hopefully) Cam and Ty.

When I see the comps to Nash, I never see them as comparisons in terms of skillset. I see the comp as a veteran PG coming to a young team with talent that needs someone to put it all together. Before Nash we had JJ, Shawn and Amare. Before Rubio we had Booker, Ayton, Oubre and Bridges. Nash was the engine to that Ferrari, I'll settle for Rubio being the engine to this...Audi R8?
I will say it again--signing Rubio is fine. It isn't a great or smart move, and we had to over pay to get him. But he should help the team to a point this year. If we are set on running the offense through Ayton a ton :) more, then his weakness as a shooter will stand out. If we do that, like Monty said, he better be running all over the place setting hard screens for Booker and Bridges and Cam.
Those are your opinions. I happen to like Shel’s better. It’s interesting how so many Suns fans like to crap on almost every move we make. Most of the pundits think it’s a good move but of course, they don’t know the team like we do so what do they know?
Wormwood/Superbone 2019/2020 season bet: Suns win < 30 games, Wormwood wins, else 'Bone wins. 1 month avatar shame starting July 1st of winner's choosing.

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ShelC
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Re: Around the League: The Off-season

Post by ShelC » Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:11 am

I can't even believe we're spending this much time on Rubio. I mean, honestly. Given what we ran out there last year and what our options were this year in FA? The PG problem, for all intents and purposes, is solved. We have a starter level, pass first PG on a pretty solid deal who fits with this team.

In fact, I like our entire roster at the moment which is something I don't think I've said in a decade. There's no C*******s, no B*****y, no washed Tyson Chandler, no M******f bitching, no out of shape Chriss. Think about the drek we've seen in Suns unis post-Nash and we're picking apart Rubio.

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Mori Chu
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Re: Around the League: The Off-season

Post by Mori Chu » Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:12 am

I look forward to farting in the general direction of all you Rubio haters when we have a strong start to next season and Rubio is a big part of the reason why.

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carey
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Re: Around the League: The Off-season

Post by carey » Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:56 am

Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:I look forward to farting in the general direction of all you Rubio haters when we have a strong start to next season and Rubio is a big part of the reason why.
You're a confident one. I hope you can hold it in until mid October.
Go Suns!

Og Snus!

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Superbone
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Re: Around the League: The Off-season

Post by Superbone » Fri Jul 19, 2019 12:18 pm

carey wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:56 am
Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:I look forward to farting in the general direction of all you Rubio haters when we have a strong start to next season and Rubio is a big part of the reason why.
You're a confident one. I hope you can hold it in until mid October.
That’s a nice visual. :P
Wormwood/Superbone 2019/2020 season bet: Suns win < 30 games, Wormwood wins, else 'Bone wins. 1 month avatar shame starting July 1st of winner's choosing.

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INFORMER
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Re: Around the League: The Off-season

Post by INFORMER » Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:20 pm

Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:12 am
I look forward to farting in the general direction of all you Rubio haters when we have a strong start to next season and Rubio is a big part of the reason why.
What is a "strong start"?
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In2ition
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Re: Around the League: The Off-season

Post by In2ition » Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:40 pm

INFORMER wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:20 pm
Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:12 am
I look forward to farting in the general direction of all you Rubio haters when we have a strong start to next season and Rubio is a big part of the reason why.
What is a "strong start"?
15-5?
"30 wins would be an extremely disappointing season" yeah, I said it and I mean it.

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Split T
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Re: Around the League: The Off-season

Post by Split T » Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:03 pm

15-5 is a lot better than a strong start. Anything over .500 through 20 games would be a strong start for me.

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Mori Chu
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Re: Around the League: The Off-season

Post by Mori Chu » Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:55 pm

INFORMER wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:20 pm
Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:12 am
I look forward to farting in the general direction of all you Rubio haters when we have a strong start to next season and Rubio is a big part of the reason why.
What is a "strong start"?
I dunno, maybe over .500 after 10 games? 6-4, 7-3? Though I'm thinking not just strictly about the record, but also on the eye test. I'm anticipating that the team just looks much more polished and professional and much more like a real NBA team early next season, through a combination of our roster additions, Monty's coaching, and maturation of our young core players.

da_suns_fan
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Re: Around the League: The Off-season

Post by da_suns_fan » Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:32 pm

Indy wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:14 pm
Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:00 pm
In2ition wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:23 am
Average STARTING PG is worlds better than average GLEAGUE PG. Rubio is a phenomenal passer, but is a pedestrian shooter at the position. The problem with Rubio in Utah wasn't that he wasn't any good, it was that he wasn't a good enough shooter to make up for having 2 other non-shooters on the floor with him. And, I'm not calling Ricky a non-shooter...just a pedestrian one. He doesn't have the gravity to make himself a major threat and pull defenders away from the non-shooters. The other problem was that Quinn and Utah's system marginalized Rubio's biggest strength in his passing, by emphasizing a team passing offense and taking the ball out of his hands in favor of Mitchell.

I think in the right system that allows his ball handling, decision making and passing to shine, while being surrounded by shooters all over the floor would bring out a different player than we've seen from Ricky. But...we'll see if that holds true or not.
This is where I'm at on Rubio. I agree with folks who say he isn't Nash and that we shouldn't expect Nash. Rubio isn't a good shooter, and Nash is one of the all-time great shooters. But I disagree with the argument that because he left Utah and Utah wanted Conley, Rubio is some kind of bum. As In2 sagely points out, the issue wasn't Rubio's talent so much as the fit. Utah really wants to run their offense as a slow half-court style dominated by Mitchell holding the ball. They also start Gobert who is not an outside shooter. Those two constraints mean that you need great shooting from the other 3 positions so Mitchell and Gobert have people to pass it out to after a drive or pick-and-roll. Rubio isn't very valuable as a spot-up shooter, so he wasn't a great fit for the offense they want to run. That's all there is to it.

Meanwhile, on a team like the Suns, I think Rubio is almost exactly what we need from our PG. Sure, it would be better if he were an above-average shooter. Absolutely. But I don't actually want a ball-dominant shoot-first PG like a Russell. That kind of PG would take shots and touches away from Booker and Ayton and could gum up our offense. We want the ball to move, and we mostly want a PG who can set up our other talented starters such as Booker, Ayton, and Oubre. And we want a PG who plays good perimeter and team defense to cover a bit for Booker on that end. And we want a PG who can run a fast break. I actually don't think D'Angelo Russell or Terry Rozier or whoever is actually a very good fit. I think Rubio actually fits our need much better. If Rubio can take smart shots and focus on what he's good at, I think it'll be a huge upgrade.

The other thing to remember is that our PGs last year were absolutely horrendous. We've almost forgotten how important the PG position is and how transformative having a good PG can be. I think Rubio will make a huge impact and just make a lot of other guys better. The improvement in, say, Ayton's game will be worth the price of admission on Rubio all by itself.
Here are the PGs in the league that actually got playing time and took shots, but still shot worse that Ricky for 2P%, 3P%, and eFG%.

Code: Select all

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404

Nobody.

If you lower the requirements to only taking 500 shots the entire year, there was one other player in the league that shot less than 41% from 2, 32% from 3, and 46% eFG. It was Josh Okogie.

He isn't average or pedestrian. Last year he was as bad as it got for a rotation player in the league. Guys will sag off of him and clog the paint. I hope his great passing and knack for basketball will over come it, otherwise it will be a long 3 years and that 17.8M in year three will look awful.
This.

He isnt "average". He isnt "pedestrian". He's a poor shooter.

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Aztec Sunsfan
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Re: Around the League: The Off-season

Post by Aztec Sunsfan » Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:45 pm

Superbone wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:55 am
Indy wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:42 am
ShelC wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:33 am
Every player has faults. You're not going to find a perfect player to come to a 20 win team, regardless of a max contract. If it were DLo, it'd be defense and needing the ball to be effective. Kyrie, it'd be attitude and injuries.

I think the way the roster is constructed, we can minimize Rubio's main weakness as a shooter. We have Ayton in the post, we have Booker on the wing, Oubre and Saric are threats from 3, as are Kaminsky, Bridges and (hopefully) Cam and Ty.

When I see the comps to Nash, I never see them as comparisons in terms of skillset. I see the comp as a veteran PG coming to a young team with talent that needs someone to put it all together. Before Nash we had JJ, Shawn and Amare. Before Rubio we had Booker, Ayton, Oubre and Bridges. Nash was the engine to that Ferrari, I'll settle for Rubio being the engine to this...Audi R8?
I will say it again--signing Rubio is fine. It isn't a great or smart move, and we had to over pay to get him. But he should help the team to a point this year. If we are set on running the offense through Ayton a ton :) more, then his weakness as a shooter will stand out. If we do that, like Monty said, he better be running all over the place setting hard screens for Booker and Bridges and Cam.
Those are your opinions. I happen to like Shel’s better. It’s interesting how so many Suns fans like to crap on almost every move we make. Most of the pundits think it’s a good move but of course, they don’t know the team like we do so what do they know?
Sometimes it’s exhausting to read through all the vicious postings, trying to outsmart the people trying to keep a positive vibe, I come here to share and enjoy, Koo Aid aside, but some times the critic is out of proportion, with no room for hope.

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Shabazz
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Re: Around the League: The Off-season

Post by Shabazz » Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:16 pm

Pacers signed Justin Holiday for the room exception.

Without getting into the offseason as a whole, there's a very plausible universe that exists where we have Brandon Clarke and Justin Holiday instead of Cam Johnson and Frank Kaminsky. I greatly prefer the former pairing.

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Superbone
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Re: Around the League: The Off-season

Post by Superbone » Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:17 pm

Aztec Sunsfan wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:45 pm
Superbone wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:55 am
Indy wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:42 am
ShelC wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:33 am
Every player has faults. You're not going to find a perfect player to come to a 20 win team, regardless of a max contract. If it were DLo, it'd be defense and needing the ball to be effective. Kyrie, it'd be attitude and injuries.

I think the way the roster is constructed, we can minimize Rubio's main weakness as a shooter. We have Ayton in the post, we have Booker on the wing, Oubre and Saric are threats from 3, as are Kaminsky, Bridges and (hopefully) Cam and Ty.

When I see the comps to Nash, I never see them as comparisons in terms of skillset. I see the comp as a veteran PG coming to a young team with talent that needs someone to put it all together. Before Nash we had JJ, Shawn and Amare. Before Rubio we had Booker, Ayton, Oubre and Bridges. Nash was the engine to that Ferrari, I'll settle for Rubio being the engine to this...Audi R8?
I will say it again--signing Rubio is fine. It isn't a great or smart move, and we had to over pay to get him. But he should help the team to a point this year. If we are set on running the offense through Ayton a ton :) more, then his weakness as a shooter will stand out. If we do that, like Monty said, he better be running all over the place setting hard screens for Booker and Bridges and Cam.
Those are your opinions. I happen to like Shel’s better. It’s interesting how so many Suns fans like to crap on almost every move we make. Most of the pundits think it’s a good move but of course, they don’t know the team like we do so what do they know?
Sometimes it’s exhausting to read through all the vicious postings, trying to outsmart the people trying to keep a positive vibe, I come here to share and enjoy, Koo Aid aside, but some times the critic is out of proportion, with no room for hope.
I feel your pain. The criticism is over the top here and is not fair and balanced. Hopefully, if we start to have some success, the mood of the board will turn around where not everything is so dire. I understand we’ve had a bad run but let’s see how we look this upcoming season after the Jones makeover.
Wormwood/Superbone 2019/2020 season bet: Suns win < 30 games, Wormwood wins, else 'Bone wins. 1 month avatar shame starting July 1st of winner's choosing.

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In2ition
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Re: Around the League: The Off-season

Post by In2ition » Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:36 pm

Superbone wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:17 pm
Aztec Sunsfan wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:45 pm
Superbone wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:55 am
Indy wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:42 am
ShelC wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:33 am
Every player has faults. You're not going to find a perfect player to come to a 20 win team, regardless of a max contract. If it were DLo, it'd be defense and needing the ball to be effective. Kyrie, it'd be attitude and injuries.

I think the way the roster is constructed, we can minimize Rubio's main weakness as a shooter. We have Ayton in the post, we have Booker on the wing, Oubre and Saric are threats from 3, as are Kaminsky, Bridges and (hopefully) Cam and Ty.

When I see the comps to Nash, I never see them as comparisons in terms of skillset. I see the comp as a veteran PG coming to a young team with talent that needs someone to put it all together. Before Nash we had JJ, Shawn and Amare. Before Rubio we had Booker, Ayton, Oubre and Bridges. Nash was the engine to that Ferrari, I'll settle for Rubio being the engine to this...Audi R8?
I will say it again--signing Rubio is fine. It isn't a great or smart move, and we had to over pay to get him. But he should help the team to a point this year. If we are set on running the offense through Ayton a ton :) more, then his weakness as a shooter will stand out. If we do that, like Monty said, he better be running all over the place setting hard screens for Booker and Bridges and Cam.
Those are your opinions. I happen to like Shel’s better. It’s interesting how so many Suns fans like to crap on almost every move we make. Most of the pundits think it’s a good move but of course, they don’t know the team like we do so what do they know?
Sometimes it’s exhausting to read through all the vicious postings, trying to outsmart the people trying to keep a positive vibe, I come here to share and enjoy, Koo Aid aside, but some times the critic is out of proportion, with no room for hope.
I feel your pain. The criticism is over the top here and is not fair and balanced. Hopefully, if we start to have some success, the mood of the board will turn around where not everything is so dire. I understand we’ve had a bad run but let’s see how we look this upcoming season after the Jones makeover.
I think there are a lot of people, including those national "experts" that agree with the naysayers. I just heard Bryan Toporek on the NBA Podcast say he had absolutely nothing positive to say about the Suns off-season. We all saw the HUGE holes on the team, and have many wide ranges of opinions on how they were addressed.

I don't necessarily expect the national guys to look all that closely at the team last year. Howard Beck have them absolutely no chance to make the playoffs this year. They are just a butt of jokes at this time and the countdown to Booker's eventual departure has already started in their eyes, along with still being unsure if he can actually contribute to winning basketball.
"30 wins would be an extremely disappointing season" yeah, I said it and I mean it.

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INFORMER
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Re: Around the League: The Off-season

Post by INFORMER » Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:50 pm

Superbone wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:55 am
Those are your opinions. I happen to like Shel’s better. It’s interesting how so many Suns fans like to crap on almost every move we make. Most of the pundits think it’s a good move but of course, they don’t know the team like we do so what do they know?
Most of the pundits loved our Bender/Chriss combo platter.

I'm still mystified but this same post that gets regurgitated every offseason. Why do we ignore the legitimate, reasonable concerns people have, and try to write them off as people just being negative to be negative? And why do we still cry over negative opinions after several seasons of negative opinions being proven right?
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Aztec Sunsfan
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Re: Around the League: The Off-season

Post by Aztec Sunsfan » Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:31 pm

Considering that even in the Nash years, people kept writing off the Suns with legitimate and reasonable concerns that ultimately proved right, it’s actually easier to keep on beating the negative drums that trying to find the silver lining. Again, I’m not talking about Kool Aid talk, but to keep building on what’s posible for this team to achieve.

Funny thing, those years are now mystified and turns out that Nash cannot be mentioned in the same sentence that Rubio (talking about the moment of the signing, not two MVP trophies later) but on that offseason no one would have forecasted MVsteve, neither 7 SSOL, and of course, legitimate and reasonable concerns were circulated. Not saying that Rubio will be the next 2 times MVP, but is not out of the posible, that his arrival will have a positive impact.

The pessimist happens to be correct most of the time over the optimistic people, but we optimists enjoy the ride further and longer. I enjoyed those Nash’s years back then an now, instead of ripping apart the team then, and only dream of what-if today. Yeah, they fell short, the predictions about their lack of rebounding and defense were proven right, but hey, what a wonderful Hope was to watch them play against odds. Yeah, a lot of mistakes were made, lot of mismanagement, and yet, just a couple lucky breaks would have silenced those legitimate and reasonable concerns. Sadly, fate was not our side, unlike that recent Khawi shot.

To be strictly rational, and keep going over and over on legitimate and reasonable concerns, I have many other things in my life (job, family, health, pension fund, etc), so I like to take my sports light, to suck some fresh air, and dream every time my team it’s about to play. Like someone said earlier in the week, no matter how bleak the situation is, we are undefeated until the game is over. But that’s just me.
Last edited by Aztec Sunsfan on Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:45 am, edited 3 times in total.

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