Grade the Suns' 2019 draft day

Discussion of the league and of our favorite team.

Grade the Suns' draft day:

A
1
3%
B
5
15%
C
8
24%
D
8
24%
F
11
33%
 
Total votes: 33

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ShelC
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Re: Grade the Suns' 2019 draft day

Post by ShelC »

I understand it, I just think you're off base. Saric's per 36 numbers were almost exactly the same as his numbers in Philly during the 16-17 season. He doesn't really need stars to make the game easier for him because he can get his own offense going. He's not Anderson or Ariza just planted on the 3pt line waiting someone to kickout to him for a 3.

Besides that, we have Book and Ayton to attract the defense and more shooting this year in Bridges, Oubre and hopefully Johnson who can keep a defense honest on the perimeter. We don't know who will be our PG yet so it's premature to speculate on that. But his ability to breakdown a defense alone makes him more valuable and more dangerous than Anderson ever was.

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Split T
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Re: Grade the Suns' 2019 draft day

Post by Split T »

Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:11 am
In general you don't have to package picks to get rid of actual productive players like Warren. You have to include a pick when they are dead weight, salary ballast, when they just eat up cap space. Indefensible that we had to throw in our pick to get him out.
The thing we have to remember, is hardly any of us valued Warren very much. We agree he is a very good scorer, but he doesn’t do anything else and is often hurt. He was not worth 11 million a year to us. I think we included more in the trade than we needed too, but it is understandable why we did.

Imagine he was a free agent, what kind of contract would he have signed? Would it have been less than, greater than, or equal to 3 years 35 million? If it’s less than and we are taking back no salary in the process, it makes sense for us to have to include draft considerations.

I thought 32 was too high, next years 2nd or a swap of 2nd rounders would have seemed more fair to me, but I just don’t think there was much of a market for teams to just take TJ into cap space. Cap space is too valuable, especially on July 1st. If we wanted a return for Warren, trading him in August would have been better timing, of course we wanted the cap space rather than the return.

We’ll see what we do with the cap space, as that will be a big factor in how this is ultimately viewed.

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Mori Chu
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Re: Grade the Suns' 2019 draft day

Post by Mori Chu »

Wormwood wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:01 am
Hope you're right. Here's what I'm asking though, and ShelC's not quite understanding.

They loved him in Philadelphia (a playoff team). He was bad in Minny. We're assembling a roster full of guys who can be contributors (but not stars) on playoff teams. We also can see that Saric did badly when moved to a non-playoff team. What I fear is that without a distributing PG who spaces the floor, the version of Saric we are getting will be more Minnesota than Philadelphia. To get the most out of players like Saric (and Channing Frye) you need stars around them to support.

Without those stars, they're going to look BAD.
I do think this team has stars. They are Booker and Ayton, and possibly a free agent PG such as D'Angelo Russell. I do think that Saric is going to be the 4th or 5th option on offense, so he'll get some open looks. The defenses are going to be trying to stop Russell/Book/Ayton and will leave Saric open for some 3s.

I recognize that Saric regressed a bit in Minnesota. But that team was kind of a toxic situation. Arguably our team is better coached and has a better mix of talent to play with Saric, especially if we get a solid starting PG in free agency.

I'm not certain that we'll get Philly Saric instead of Minny Saric. But I think there is reason to be hopeful.

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O_Gardino
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Re: Grade the Suns' 2019 draft day

Post by O_Gardino »

I didn't watch many Wolves games last season. What did Saric do worse? By the numbers, his shooting and rebounding were both as good as they were on the 76ers and better than any of our forwards.
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Indy
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Re: Grade the Suns' 2019 draft day

Post by Indy »

Split T wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:16 am
Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:11 am
In general you don't have to package picks to get rid of actual productive players like Warren. You have to include a pick when they are dead weight, salary ballast, when they just eat up cap space. Indefensible that we had to throw in our pick to get him out.
The thing we have to remember, is hardly any of us valued Warren very much. We agree he is a very good scorer, but he doesn’t do anything else and is often hurt. He was not worth 11 million a year to us. I think we included more in the trade than we needed too, but it is understandable why we did.

Imagine he was a free agent, what kind of contract would he have signed? Would it have been less than, greater than, or equal to 3 years 35 million? If it’s less than and we are taking back no salary in the process, it makes sense for us to have to include draft considerations.

I thought 32 was too high, next years 2nd or a swap of 2nd rounders would have seemed more fair to me, but I just don’t think there was much of a market for teams to just take TJ into cap space.
Cap space is too valuable, especially on July 1st. If we wanted a return for Warren, trading him in August would have been better timing, of course we wanted the cap space rather than the return.

We’ll see what we do with the cap space, as that will be a big factor in how this is ultimately viewed.
I think this is a good way to look at it. The question is how many people wanted TJ on the contract her currently had, and were willing to give up that 11.5/12M in their cap space right now? I am assuming nobody said yes the first time. So maybe we sweetened the pot with 32. I would think we could have found a way to pick swap, or even swap for future years. Not sure how well we negotiated there. But I don't see TJ + 32 for 1 years (and bird rights) for Saric as anywhere close to the KT sell-off we had. But it is still an overpay to dump him.

By this math, dumping JJ would likely cost us Melton and a first round pick.

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Shabazz
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Re: Grade the Suns' 2019 draft day

Post by Shabazz »

Wormwood wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:43 am
ShelC wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:32 am
I don't think you've seen Saric play if you're comparing him to Ryan Anderson.
He's considerably better than Anderson, but in many ways his role is supposed to be the same as Anderson's was. Without a decent PG and poor shooters elsewhere on the team, Ryan failed miserably. I'm not certain that putting Saric in the exact same situation while he brings some of the same things to the table will allow him to thrive, either.
Ryan Anderson has only himself to blame for his play last season. He had plenty of open looks. He just couldn't hit anything.

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Split T
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Re: Grade the Suns' 2019 draft day

Post by Split T »

Indy wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:55 pm
Split T wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:16 am
Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:11 am
In general you don't have to package picks to get rid of actual productive players like Warren. You have to include a pick when they are dead weight, salary ballast, when they just eat up cap space. Indefensible that we had to throw in our pick to get him out.
The thing we have to remember, is hardly any of us valued Warren very much. We agree he is a very good scorer, but he doesn’t do anything else and is often hurt. He was not worth 11 million a year to us. I think we included more in the trade than we needed too, but it is understandable why we did.

Imagine he was a free agent, what kind of contract would he have signed? Would it have been less than, greater than, or equal to 3 years 35 million? If it’s less than and we are taking back no salary in the process, it makes sense for us to have to include draft considerations.

I thought 32 was too high, next years 2nd or a swap of 2nd rounders would have seemed more fair to me, but I just don’t think there was much of a market for teams to just take TJ into cap space.
Cap space is too valuable, especially on July 1st. If we wanted a return for Warren, trading him in August would have been better timing, of course we wanted the cap space rather than the return.

We’ll see what we do with the cap space, as that will be a big factor in how this is ultimately viewed.
I think this is a good way to look at it. The question is how many people wanted TJ on the contract her currently had, and were willing to give up that 11.5/12M in their cap space right now? I am assuming nobody said yes the first time. So maybe we sweetened the pot with 32. I would think we could have found a way to pick swap, or even swap for future years. Not sure how well we negotiated there. But I don't see TJ + 32 for 1 years (and bird rights) for Saric as anywhere close to the KT sell-off we had. But it is still an overpay to dump him.

By this math, dumping JJ would likely cost us Melton and a first round pick.
Luckily JJ is an expiring contract, so I don’t think it’ll take too much. And with him I think it’s less about creating cap space and more about just moving on. I could see us swapping him for another disappointing player with a similar or slightly lower salary number. Frank Ntilikina for instance.

Ultimately, I think we’ll have no problem moving him come August when some teams have leftover cap space and want to take a flyer on him. He’s still very talented. Worst case scenario, we just release him and eat the 7 million.

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Cap
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Re: Grade the Suns' 2019 draft day

Post by Cap »

Split T wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:07 pm
Worst case scenario, we just release him and eat the 7 million.
Why? Despite his off-court problems, he doesn’t seem to be a locker room cancer. I see no problem with keeping him around on the end of the bench. You never know, a trade might materialize before the deadline in February.

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Split T
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Re: Grade the Suns' 2019 draft day

Post by Split T »

Cap wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:51 pm
Split T wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:07 pm
Worst case scenario, we just release him and eat the 7 million.
Why? Despite his off-court problems, he doesn’t seem to be a locker room cancer. I see no problem with keeping him around on the end of the bench. You never know, a trade might materialize before the deadline in February.
Sure, if he’s not gonna cause a problem sitting on the end of the bench. That would be a slightly better case scenario, so my comment is still true ;)

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Superbone
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Re: Grade the Suns' 2019 draft day

Post by Superbone »

Split T wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:57 pm
Cap wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:51 pm
Split T wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:07 pm
Worst case scenario, we just release him and eat the 7 million.
Why? Despite his off-court problems, he doesn’t seem to be a locker room cancer. I see no problem with keeping him around on the end of the bench. You never know, a trade might materialize before the deadline in February.
Sure, if he’s not gonna cause a problem sitting on the end of the bench. That would be a slightly better case scenario, so my comment is still true ;)
Actually, we don’t know how he’s going to react. He’s always gotten playing time in the past. OTOH, what if they try to showcase him to see if they can get anything for him? Seems like a Sarver thing to do. Not sure how Monty would feel about that though.
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Superbone
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Re: Grade the Suns' 2019 draft day

Post by Superbone »

However, it’s time to stop fooling around and start winning some games. Let’s hope Williams has the autonomy to play the best players and try his best to win games without any ulterior motives.
"Be Legendary."

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Shabazz
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Re: Grade the Suns' 2019 draft day

Post by Shabazz »

Superbone wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:53 pm
However, it’s time to stop fooling around and start winning some games. Let’s hope Williams has the autonomy to play the best players and try his best to win games without any ulterior motives.
He does. There's no way Sarver is eating 5 years of salary.

Phoenix219
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Re: Grade the Suns' 2019 draft day

Post by Phoenix219 »

Let me know when we get a point guard to run this shit show.....

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Cap
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Re: Grade the Suns' 2019 draft day

Post by Cap »

Superbone wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:51 pm
Split T wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:57 pm
Cap wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:51 pm
Split T wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:07 pm
Worst case scenario, we just release him and eat the 7 million.
Why? Despite his off-court problems, he doesn’t seem to be a locker room cancer. I see no problem with keeping him around on the end of the bench. You never know, a trade might materialize before the deadline in February.
Sure, if he’s not gonna cause a problem sitting on the end of the bench. That would be a slightly better case scenario, so my comment is still true ;)
Actually, we don’t know how he’s going to react. He’s always gotten playing time in the past. OTOH, what if they try to showcase him to see if they can get anything for him? Seems like a Sarver thing to do. Not sure how Monty would feel about that though.
How do you “showcase” one of the worst players in the league? The only thing that playing him shows is how much he stinks.

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ShelC
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Re: Grade the Suns' 2019 draft day

Post by ShelC »

The showcase thing is overrated. Teams know these guys. Maybe there's a team/exec that liked Jackson during the draft and is willing to take a chance on him, but with his baggage now it'll be an even tougher sell.

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Re: Grade the Suns' 2019 draft day

Post by Drewsprocket »

Split T wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:57 pm
Cap wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:51 pm
Split T wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:07 pm
Worst case scenario, we just release him and eat the 7 million.
Why? Despite his off-court problems, he doesn’t seem to be a locker room cancer. I see no problem with keeping him around on the end of the bench. You never know, a trade might materialize before the deadline in February.
Sure, if he’s not gonna cause a problem sitting on the end of the bench. That would be a slightly better case scenario, so my comment is still true ;)
This team has to stop getting techs while playing like scrubs and throwing tantrums to the refs. That says it all to me. I really hope Monty can help him turn his game around.

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Superbone
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Re: Grade the Suns' 2019 draft day

Post by Superbone »

David Aldridge weighs in on the Suns draft:

https://theathletic.com/1044181/2019/06 ... e-promise/
No team caught more flak for its draft-night maneuvers than the Suns, who seemed to be all over the place:
  • They traded T.J. Warren (cool; creates more cap space), but included the 32nd pick, the second pick of the second round, which makes it, essentially, a first (whoa, wait a minute…) to Indiana for cash.
  • Then they traded the sixth pick in the draft (wait, I thought they needed a point guard) to Minnesota for the 11th pick (but there won’t be a point guard available there) and veteran Dario Saric (I guess he played with Monty Williams in Philly, so he knows him, so…okay?)
  • Then they traded the 2020 first-rounder they got from Milwaukee in the Eric Bledsoe deal in 2017 (but…assets!) to Boston for the 24th pick in this year’s draft (okay…assets!) and center Aron Baynes, who’d opted into his deal with the Celtics but wanted to be sent to a contending team, which the Suns—DFL in the Western Conference this past season—are, most assuredly, not.
  • Then they drafted North Carolina forward Cam Johnson, viewed as the top shooter in this year’s draft (analytics rule!), but who had been red-flagged by multiple teams before the draft because of multiple medical procedures that had been performed on him since high school (but … don’t medical analytics rule more?). In addition, he was one the oldest (23) players taken in the Lottery in the last decade.
  • Then they took Virginia point guard Ty Jerome (national champion!) with the first-rounder they got from Boston. But they could have just stayed at six and taken UNC’s Coby White, who went a pick later, to Chicago. (Huh?)
Huh?

One can surmise that the Suns’ medical group has a different view of Johnson’s physical future than other teams, and reached a different conclusion after taking a deep dive. And one can further surmise that they believe Johnson—who graduated from Pitt in three years before taking a graduate year at Carolina, earning his Master’s—will be able to play long into the future.

If you think Johnson will be able to hold up physically, then where he went in the draft isn’t so weird. The guy is an elite-level shooter (career 40 percent in college) who should space the floor for Devin Booker and DeAndre Ayton.

The Suns believe the first-rounder they sent to Boston via Milwaukee to get Baynes will be pretty low in the first round next year, figuring the Bucks’ rise in the East will continue. And they believe, substantially, in Baynes as a culture setter and, a pick setter, who’ll help spring Jerome, the pick-and-roll passing whiz from the national champions.

Saric, a free agent after next season, is more of a longshot to stick around the Valley of the Sun—he could be too expensive to keep. But while he’s there, he can add to Baynes’s physicality and experience, and new coach Monty Williams worked with Saric in Philly when Williams was an assistant. The Suns spent the last few years adding young talent high in the draft, but it didn’t get them anywhere. In fact, it got them 15th place out of 15 teams in the west.

With Williams and his staff in place, the Suns want, and need, to accelerate the process. They’ve been trying to get difference makers to come to Arizona for years (remember their close-but-no-cigar pursuit of LaMarcus Aldridge? Of Paul Millsap? Of DeMarcus Cousins?). At some point, you have to turn that cap space into actual players.

This year’s cap space was more valuable than, say, another run at a max guy like D’Angelo Russell—and more valuable than staying at six and taking White, who would have made $4.8 million the first year of his rookie deal at six, compared with Jerome, who’ll make $1.8 million at 24. So the Suns will likely go after more reasonably-priced free agents-lower than max guys, higher than mid-level guys.

The Suns have some logjams at multiple positions: Jerome, Elie Okobo and De’Anthony Melton at the point; Johnson, Josh Jackson, Mikal Bridges and restricted free agent Kelly Oubre at the three. They have some flexibility to make some serious offers to people, both in free agency and in trades.

It’s not ideal. But what they did on draft night wasn’t the work of nonsense, either.
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In2ition
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Re: Grade the Suns' 2019 draft day

Post by In2ition »

Thank you. Someone gets it.
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Bucktastic365
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Re: Grade the Suns' 2019 draft day

Post by Bucktastic365 »

Superbone wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:34 am
David Aldridge weighs in on the Suns draft:

https://theathletic.com/1044181/2019/06 ... e-promise/
No team caught more flak for its draft-night maneuvers than the Suns, who seemed to be all over the place:
  • They traded T.J. Warren (cool; creates more cap space), but included the 32nd pick, the second pick of the second round, which makes it, essentially, a first (whoa, wait a minute…) to Indiana for cash.
  • Then they traded the sixth pick in the draft (wait, I thought they needed a point guard) to Minnesota for the 11th pick (but there won’t be a point guard available there) and veteran Dario Saric (I guess he played with Monty Williams in Philly, so he knows him, so…okay?)
  • Then they traded the 2020 first-rounder they got from Milwaukee in the Eric Bledsoe deal in 2017 (but…assets!) to Boston for the 24th pick in this year’s draft (okay…assets!) and center Aron Baynes, who’d opted into his deal with the Celtics but wanted to be sent to a contending team, which the Suns—DFL in the Western Conference this past season—are, most assuredly, not.
  • Then they drafted North Carolina forward Cam Johnson, viewed as the top shooter in this year’s draft (analytics rule!), but who had been red-flagged by multiple teams before the draft because of multiple medical procedures that had been performed on him since high school (but … don’t medical analytics rule more?). In addition, he was one the oldest (23) players taken in the Lottery in the last decade.
  • Then they took Virginia point guard Ty Jerome (national champion!) with the first-rounder they got from Boston. But they could have just stayed at six and taken UNC’s Coby White, who went a pick later, to Chicago. (Huh?)
Huh?

One can surmise that the Suns’ medical group has a different view of Johnson’s physical future than other teams, and reached a different conclusion after taking a deep dive. And one can further surmise that they believe Johnson—who graduated from Pitt in three years before taking a graduate year at Carolina, earning his Master’s—will be able to play long into the future.

If you think Johnson will be able to hold up physically, then where he went in the draft isn’t so weird. The guy is an elite-level shooter (career 40 percent in college) who should space the floor for Devin Booker and DeAndre Ayton.

The Suns believe the first-rounder they sent to Boston via Milwaukee to get Baynes will be pretty low in the first round next year, figuring the Bucks’ rise in the East will continue. And they believe, substantially, in Baynes as a culture setter and, a pick setter, who’ll help spring Jerome, the pick-and-roll passing whiz from the national champions.

Saric, a free agent after next season, is more of a longshot to stick around the Valley of the Sun—he could be too expensive to keep. But while he’s there, he can add to Baynes’s physicality and experience, and new coach Monty Williams worked with Saric in Philly when Williams was an assistant. The Suns spent the last few years adding young talent high in the draft, but it didn’t get them anywhere. In fact, it got them 15th place out of 15 teams in the west.

With Williams and his staff in place, the Suns want, and need, to accelerate the process. They’ve been trying to get difference makers to come to Arizona for years (remember their close-but-no-cigar pursuit of LaMarcus Aldridge? Of Paul Millsap? Of DeMarcus Cousins?). At some point, you have to turn that cap space into actual players.

This year’s cap space was more valuable than, say, another run at a max guy like D’Angelo Russell—and more valuable than staying at six and taking White, who would have made $4.8 million the first year of his rookie deal at six, compared with Jerome, who’ll make $1.8 million at 24. So the Suns will likely go after more reasonably-priced free agents-lower than max guys, higher than mid-level guys.

The Suns have some logjams at multiple positions: Jerome, Elie Okobo and De’Anthony Melton at the point; Johnson, Josh Jackson, Mikal Bridges and restricted free agent Kelly Oubre at the three. They have some flexibility to make some serious offers to people, both in free agency and in trades.

It’s not ideal. But what they did on draft night wasn’t the work of nonsense, either.


This is my take on the situation as well. There IS method to this madness, but we just can't see it yet.

Btw, my hope is that Cam becomes our Horry; the stroke plus the winning intangibles

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Cap
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Re: Grade the Suns' 2019 draft day

Post by Cap »

Superbone wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:34 am
David Aldridge weighs in on the Suns draft:
“I can’t believe they took Amare Stoudemire over Jared Jeffries.”

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